Addressing new TTS decoder with new loco (J36)

[crosbystills]

I am completely new to TTS and have just fitted a TTS decoder to a J36 loco.

I am using Elite. Placed Loco on programming track, as I have with other locos, and programmed loco as No.11. Placed Loco on main track Loco is dead. Other locos ok.

Dismantled loco again to check for damage etc all ok. Repeated the above without success.

Having read through some of the forum comments before posting this I have ordered the ESU tester (I did not know of its existence or I would have already bought one.

In the meantime any clues as what may be the problem (addressing etc) will be most welcome.

 

[Chrissaf]

It may be just a faulty TTS decoder. The TTS decoders do seem to have an unusually high forum reported fault rate. However, one also has to bear in mind that it is a popular Hornby decoder and lot's are sold, and people only tend to report the faulty ones on the forum. So maybe as a %, the fault rate is normal. But a faulty decoder is still highly 'suspect'.

 

The ESU tester would have allowed you to check the decoder straight out of the packaging using the factory default address [03] prior to installation in the loco and also allowed the DCC address and any other tweaks to be configured and tested as functional before fitting. Therefore, taking the installation method and the loco itself out of the equation i.e discounted as being the culprit.

[96RAF]

Have you checked if the loco works on address 3 as it may just the the new address is not taking.

 

Can you read-back anything e.g. address direct, CV1, CV7 or CV8. If you can read-back we then know the programming is working and you have a correct setup.

 

If addressing does not appear to be taking swap the A and B wires over at the Elite PROG terminals, which is the equivalent of turning the loco round physically. Report affect if any.

[crosbystills]

Thanks for replies chaps. I have just tried addressing the item again with some success. I adressed with "zero one one" instead of "one one", it is eleven I require. This worked and I could operate the loco directionally. However as soon as I started to play with functions the functions work but not the loco?

Now stopped playing for a while as other things to do. Your ideas/replies are most welcome I will get there in the end.

[Chrissaf]

I addressed with "zero one one" instead of "one one"

 

Remember that the Elite loco addressing range is from 0000 to 9999

 

So zero, one, one is effectively 110 [i.e 011x] until the last fourth digit [x] is entered, which the Elite is waiting for.

 

You should ideally to be 'belt n braces' be entering zero, zero, one, one for 11 i.e 0011

 

If using the keypad I would advise you to enter a total of four digits to minimise the risk of mis data entry. If you use the speed knob and rotate it to get 11, then that automatically enters the two leading zeros. Which is probably why all the examples in the Elite manual use the 'rotating knob' method of data entry.

 

I have an Elite and if using the keypad I always enter four digits with zeros as appropriate and don't have any issues. If my loco addresses were in the low 2 digit range, then I would probably always use the rotating knob method.

[ColinB]

With my Elite you can put 11 in and it works, alternatively you can turn the controller knob to get 11. I don't think I have ever had to input 011 for 11. The other thing to watch for is that the number doesn't change as you press the controller to enter the value. I did have issue with the Elite not writing values to a DC concepts decoder, where it failed more times than it passed but TTS decoders are usually ok. Normally to check whether the decoder is working is to put it on a piece of programming track and see if you can read the Manufacture's Id. Nobody has asked this, but you are using the programming terminals to do all of this. I have had a TTS lose sound but still run the loco, but never the other way.

[crosbystills]

I actually did enter 0011 to get it to work. Still haven't figured out the rest of the set up yet.

Is there a way of setting everything back to the start? i.e nothing yet entered.

[96RAF]

Write value 8 to CV8 to reset the decider to factory defaults i.e. address 3.

 

@Colin  - I did mention reading back CV7/8 and using PROG terminals in my response.. .

[Chrissaf]

I actually did enter 0011 to get it to work.

 

Thank you Crosby for confirming my method as being more reliable.

 

PS - Where's 'Nash' gone to 😉

[crosbystills]

Hello again chaps latest on J36 TTS decoder.

I briefly had direction control but when I tried functions they worked ok but movement/direction control was lost.

I have just tried reading back cv's (on programming track) with instructions from Elite Operators Manual "Changing and Reading CV's" and all produce 255 and the red led flashes only once?

I am assuming at this time I have a "Duff" decoder? Next step I think is to remove the decoder from the loco and test it on the ESU Tester once I have that rigged up, although I can't see why this will produce anything different.

Advice on returning decoder to Hornby would be welcome.

[Chrissaf]

Your observed symptoms are very similar to the symptoms that one would observe with TTS decoder fitted locos that are running on a layout powered on a layout using analogue power connection products.

 

If you are using any of the following Hornby track products on your layout, then these are almost certainly the cause of your 'loss of control' issue. This includes both your main layout AND your 'programming' track piece.

 

• R602 Power Clips
• R8206 Power Track
• R8201 Link Wire

 

If any or all of these are used on your layout, then open them up and remove [cut out] the capacitor soldered across the rail connections. If you have more than one of these, check each and every one and remove any capacitors found. See image below for details.

 

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[96RAF]

Using the ESU rig wired direct to the Elite Prog/Track terminals will preclude the effect of any dodgy power track/clips as stated in Chris’s reply.

 

To send the decoder if faulty back to Hornby you need to talk to Customer Care and get a returns number. They should ask for your original receipt to prove the 1-year warranty is valid.

[crosbystills]

All track connections including my programming track are hard (soldered) connections. The main track has a solid copper bus bar with 4 pairs of parallel drop downs one at each extremity and two around the track.

The programming track is completely separate. All other locos, points and decouplers work perfectly with Railmaster. (I am still developing the layout so signalling will come later) No doubt I will be asking for advice when that time comes.

This is my first 'Foray' into the TTS maze.

[Chrissaf]

That's a pity, if the capacitors had been present, then that would have been a easy fix.

[crosbystills]

Thanks guys.

I have received the ESU tester so will be testing the said decoder tomorrow.

[crosbystills]

Hello again. Connected up ESU decoder tester (superb bit of kit) and tested J36 decoder, it all works?

Only just done that so will fit it again to loco tomorrow. At this stage I have no idea what is happening as it was working in the loco but then stopped. 

[96RAF]

If the decoder is fine in the test rig then the loco is at fault. I would be investigating as far as possible before fitting the TTS decoder. Maybe risk a spare cheapo decoder in there first.

[Chrissaf]

Possibly intermittent wheel pickups and/or dirty wheels or loose internal wires or dry solder joints. Basically, the whole electrical path within the loco between the track rails and the red and black wire solder pads on the decoder.

[ColinB]

I don't know if this is any help. I too have been having issues with one TTS decoder (I have lots of others). This was factory fitted to a Princess Coronation. Firstly it would run round my layout, then lose sound, carry on on running round the layout without sound. It also occasionally used to stop intermittently. I sorted out all the track, which stopped the stopping but still the sound kept stopping sometimes after one circuit, sometimes after about two or 3, decoder worked perfectly with no sound. Anyway I tried everything (stay alive on the decoder, filter on the motor) you name it I tried it. Funny thing was, move the decoder to another loco perfectly ok, same as you, tried it in the Tester worked perfectly. I even moved several of my other TTS decoders into this loco and they too lost sound. In the end I come to the conclusion there was some weird interaction between the motor and any TTS decoder, I didn't want to mess with the motor, so I took the easy option, bought an expensive Zimo one. This works perfectly, so there is something weird going on with the TTS decoder. I have a pretty good idea what the issue is, but sadly I cannot fix it. So if you have any other DCC ready locos try it in those and see if it works ok.

[Fishmanoz]

In moving it Not Nash or Colin, have you kept the same loco ID or changed it?  There have been previous instances where decoders have refused to work on particular IDs. 

[96RAF]

 

@colin

TTS decoder ... I have a pretty good idea what the issue is, but sadly I cannot fix it

 

If you would care to expand your theory I will put it to the designer for consideration.

[Howbi]

I would suggest that in certain locos the current demand increases as the motor warms up after 2 or 3 laps of your layout and consequently starves the sound circuit in the TTS decoder (especially in older models). This would account as to why the decoder works perfectly in the tester or in a different loco. So basically the TTS decoder is lacking in it's power capacity........HB

[ColinB]

I didn't change the id, they were all set at the reset value of 3. Actually, howbiman that was pretty much what I figured, or that the TTS decoder uses a "watchdog timer" (a piece of hardware/software thar resets the micro if it gets in difficulty ). Either way the module is doing a reset but is not going through the normal startup routine, so the sound doesn't start up again. Alternatively, they decided to switch the sound off as a safety factor as the motor is drawing too much current, or something else. Either way it makes no dfference, other than changing the motor there is no way out and I am not going to do that, it is one of my best runners. As I said I have now fixed it by using someone elses's sound decoder. At least I don't have to worry about running it on a hot day now. I did check the versions using the CV read, yes the one in the loco was early ( I think it read 35) but the class 66 was supposedly late, reading 135, but there again they may have been version numbers of a different kind. They both exihibited the same fault. As I say it is fixed now. I could check the motor current, but I think I am finished, before I actually damage the loco. Yes before someone asks I did run it on a session lasting for a about an hour just in case it needed running in. Oh, forgot to mention once the sound if off, just switch off the DCC (I can do that really easilly with the Fleishmann), switch on DCC and hey presto sound on for another 3 circuits. Just to check it wasn't my Fleishmann throwing out error frames, I ran my brand new Princess Elizabeth with TTS decoder on the same track, no issues at all. As I say, I tried everything I could think of. As I say it was a Factory Fit TTS, so it is not one that I added.

[96RAF]

v35 would be an early TTS and v135 would be current state.

[ColinB]

I did wonder that. I tried my spare Merchant Navy DCC deoder which I would have thought would have been later and but that was the same. It was only the class 66 that was newer. Sadly they all exerted the same fault. I have a Princess Elizabeth arriving in the new few days, I wll fit it to that, I suspect there will be no issues. I would really like to know what that motor is doing? Perhaps it is overcurrenting, but it is not as if I was running at full speed (I think I did try that as well). I must admit that would make sense, to switch off the sound to protect the module. It probably only needs one transient event. I suppose the error is not switching it back on when the current gets back to normal, but I am only guessing. I even tried another Princess Coronation Class loco that has the same decoder and that was perfectly ok. I did think of swopping tenders but then I would have to double check that the wiring was exactly the same, it should be, but I have been caught out before. The thing that really annoys me, is I have bought of lot of these and now I seriously worry when the next one is going to fail. When I blow them up that is my fault, but when they just die without reason that I cannot understand.