New DCC Controller

[Chrissaf]

hi I’ve just set up my new digital select controllr and put in the digital track clips and loco decoder but it’s been nearly 30 mins waiting for the controlle to power up, is this normal on 1st use I’m using the larger capacity transformer not the the supplied one 

thanks mark

[Chrissaf]

The Select should power up and go through its start up self checks in less than 10 seconds.

 

I’m using the larger capacity transformer not the the supplied one

 

Your statement is not clear as to whether you mean the Hornby P9300 4 amp power supply which is supported OR whether you mean a non Hornby generic supply you have sourced from somewhere else.

 

If you are not using the official Hornby power supply, then:

 

The chances are that the non Hornby power supply you are using is not compatible with your Select.

 

1. The maximum supported current is 4 amps.
2. The input voltage is maximum 15 volts DC [not AC]
3. The inner pin of the 6.3mm / 3.1mm DC connector is positive.

 

If an unofficial supply is being used and is either AC or higher than 15 volts DC, then you may have damaged the Select.

 

If your DC connector is smaller than the size stated in item 3 above, then the power input plug may not be making contact with the socket. The 6.3mm / 3.1mm connector is quite rare and not found on that many power supplies.

 

Assuming the power supply is the correct one.

 

As a diagnostic check, disconnect everything from the Select except the power input supply [i.e no wiring to the layout attached]. Does it then start up normally, showing three consecutive numbers XX followed by 30 followed by 03 where XX is the firmware revision and should be a number between 10 and 20. It would be useful for you to tell us the XX number.

 

If it does start up when not connected to anything, then your layout is highly likely to have a 'short circuit' on it that is preventing the Select from starting.

 

If it still will not start up when isolated from the layout track, and you are using the official Hornby power supply, then the likelihood is that either the power supply or the Select is faulty. If you still have the original Hornby 1 amp power supply that ships with the Select, does the Select still fail to start using that power supply. If so, then that would point to the Select itself being faulty.

 

TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

 

See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum. TIPs include 'How to post images' and 'How to make links clickable'.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

 

[96RAF]

This may be a bit obvious but you have switched it on at the wall.

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi yes I meant I’m using the P9300 Hornby transformer, just came home from work to try once more, everything wired and plugged in, the select flashes 2 green lights, makes a small buzzing sound and displays E3 on the display, I disconnected the wire to the power track and put the power back on and it came on as it should showing 03 address so I must have a short as you stated, there’s nothing on the track except the digital track clips so it’s just a matter of trial and error to find it 

mark

[Chrissaf]

As we don't know what your track layout design is, it might have a 'reverse loop' designed into it. A 'reverse loop' will by its very nature generate a 'short circuit'. A turntable can also generate a 'reverse loop' as well.

 

Now if you could post a sketch of your track plan, it could be reviewed for any obvious reverse loop short circuits. TIP 8 in my TIPs page describes the image posting process. Note that images are not instant, and are held back for approval by Hornby admin staff during normal working Mon to Fri hours [not by ComMods].

 

You say 'Digital Track Clips'. Just to be 'belt n braces' be aware that power track / clip products R602, R8206 and R8201 are not DCC friendly and if more than one of these products are connected to the track then their adverse DCC corruption can combine together to shunt DCC power between the two track rails giving the effect of a 'short circuit'. The only compatible Digital DCC friendly products are R8241 and R8242.

 

If all Hornby track, then there have been reports of points leaving the factory with 'short circuit' faults on them. So if you are still able to lift and disconnect track [i.e not yet nailed / glued down], then it might be worthwhile disconnecting and reconnecting one point at a time to see if one of them clears the 'short circuit' when disconnected.

 

Note however that if a point is part of a 'reverse loop' circuit, then disconnecting the point could remove the 'reverse loop' circuit path, which could make you think that a perfectly good working point is faulty in error.

 

Chasing a 'short circuit' fault is much easier if you have access to a Multimeter. Multimeters can be purchased from eBay for less than £8 delivered and should be considered an essential tool in the toolbox for this Hobby.

 

You haven't answered the question about the first XX number on the display when powering up?

 

I throw this comment below into the mix, just in case.

 

If you purchased either of the two track packs below, then both these track pack designs have 'reverse loops' in them. None of this is documented in Hornby documentation. The large 'Corner Layout' on the left has a detailed solution already published in a forum thread. So if you have either of these two track packs, let us know so that appropriate further guidance can be given.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/36acd91cc0795a06c615caa6f3a561d9.jpg

 

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi the only number that came up was 03 when the wire to power track was disconnected, I have no loops in the track which is all Hornby as per initial oval supplied with the train set, plus extension packs A to F no deviations, and my digital track clips are Hornby R8232. Nothing in the track is glued or pinned yet, even as a complete novice I realised  this is the part you don’t want to reverse should you make a mistake, landscaping/scenery, base boards etc don’t phase me as good with my hands but technical electrics is not my thing, but I haven’t got into this expecting to rush it thru I’m quite happy to take time to get it right and learn from people on the forum 

mark

[Chrissaf]

Prior to the 03 appearing. There will be two further numbers that appear when powering up the Select from its unpowered state. These two numbers flash on the screen very briefly. So you have to be very quick and actually looking at the Select screen as you apply the power.

 

As I said in the earlier reply, the numbers are XX followed by 30 followed by 03 where XX is the firmware revision and should be a number between 10 and 20

 

It is the XX number I am interested in.

 

As you are using the basic Hornby TrakMat design [basic loop plus packs A to F] I can confirm that there are no 'reverse loops' in that design.

 

The R8232 are Digital DCC Point Clips [not DCC Track Clips]. These are something completely different to track power connectors and clips such as the R602, R8206, R8201 products I listed. Please confirm that you are using not using these three listed products, but instead using either a R8241 [DCC Power Track] or R8242 [DCC Track Power Clip] as well as your R8232 DCC Point Clips.

 

Image of R8241 [looks near identical to R8206, except R8206 has BUFF press buttons].

/media/tinymce_upload/29268b136f38e876e86e3997fcf2c097.jpg

 

Image of R8242 [looks near identical to R602 and R8201, but should have a sticky R8242 label on the underside].

 

/media/tinymce_upload/e7c00e7c8af57bc100939df74bf874f2.jpg

 

With this new updated information you have provided, it is looking as if you have a faulty point with a short circuit on it. It could be absolutely any one of the points on the layout, because the R8232 point clips will allow any 'short circuit' no matter where it is on the layout to propagate throughout the layout back to the controller.

 

Follow the systematic point disconnection / reconnection process I outlined, start at the point furthest away from the controller connection point and work your way back towards the controller until you find the point I suspect has a 'short circuit' fault on it.

 

 

[Saturday night beaver]

Having just tried the controller again unwired the number 30 came up followed by 03 then when wired it went back to green flashing lights, buzzing sound and showing E0 on the led, I disconnected transformer trying the one supplied with the select and got the same result, so I’m going to unclip all the track and refit to see if it makes a difference

mark 

[Chrissaf]

....unwired the number 30 came up followed by 03

 

You're not looking at the screen fast enough. You need to be watching the screen AS you connect the power. If you focus your attention on looking at what you are doing connecting the power, then you will miss the first XX number.

 

I have added edits to my previous reply since you posted above. Please follow the guidance in the last paragraph. If you have a faulty point as I suspect, just rebuilding the layout will more than likely not clear the fault, just move it to a different location on the layout.

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi just unconnected and connected each point in turn working back to the controller as you said, still same result, so I unconnected wire to power track then tried controller which showed up number 20 followed by 30 followed by 03 which is still on screen until I reconnect the wire to the power track, very frustrating as nothing on the track and no apparent breaks in the track

mark

[Saturday night beaver]

I have the power track with buff buttons on it, and I’ve only got the R8232 clips on track no other clips have been used and at the moment I haven’t got the black 2 prong power clip with link wire connected to any of the track, as I said earlier the number 20 comes up 1st followed by 30 then 03 

mark

[Chrissaf]

OK, now we are getting somewhere. The good news is that your Select is the very latest Mark II version with version 20 firmware. This doesn't impact your issue, but it does put you in a good position for the future as version 20 firmware allows you to write to decoder CVs 1 to 255. This is a major advantage over previous Select firmware versions.

 

Now the power track with the BUFF press buttons is a R8206 and is designed for DC Analogue layouts and not DCC ones. It contains a capacitor that goes across the rails. A capacitor passes AC currents through it. Now DCC is a form of AC. It is unusual for a single DC Analogue track product to create a short circuit, but it is feasible.

 

You might still have a track fault causing a 'short circuit' but it could also be the capacitor in the R8206 power track product. Either way, your R8206 power track either needs to be replaced with a DCC R8241 version or modified to make it DCC friendly. Even if you were to find a 'short circuit' fault elsewhere, keeping the R8206 in its unmodified state will still cause operational DCC issues in the future and definitely needs replacing or modifying. The modification involves opening the cover between the rails and cutting out the capacitor .... see the image below.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/f970b78a81269ed1e3beffddc0837491.jpg

 

Do this mod and if you don't happen to have any faulty points as your last post on page 1 infers, or any other 'short circuit' fault elsewhere on the track, then you should see an improvement with this mod performed.

 

If with the R8206 capacitor removed you still get a 'short circuit' indication on the Select. Then try this. Remove the R8206 power track completely from the layout and hold the wires from the Select controller 'TRACK A&B' output onto the rails of the rest of the layout. With the R8206 completely removed and the Select wires placed directly on the rails, does the fault clear?

 

If you did happen to have any of the track power clips i.e R602 or R8201 then these also need to be replaced with the R8242 DCC product or modified as below.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/27146276ea81b28e915e316cbdde0d41.jpg

 

One additional comment just for information. You mentioned your layout was following the Hornby TrakMat design and included Track Extension Packs A to F. I have written a downloadable guide dedicated to those A to F packs for a layout that is either DC Analogue [Chapter 5] or DCC Digital [Chapter 6] controlled. You might benefit from reading it. It can be downloaded from the 2nd sticky post down at the very top of the 'General Discussion' forum index page.

 

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi rather than modify the clips and the power track I’m going to order new DCC as I intend to use these on an anologue only run track at a higher point on my layout in order that my grandson can operate this himself independently of the main track, hopefully this will eliminate any bugs, can’t thank you enough for all your help so far, no doubt I’ll be back, just one question in your opinion which is the best way to hold track down, I had intended to use cork, pin track down then ballast, arent you then stuck with the same layout for years muffling sound is not a priority to me I love the click clack sound of trains real or model, I’ve seen people have ballasted before laying track, surely this causes level issues

mark

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi 

just one more thing, do I need more than one set of DCC power clips fitted if I’m only running 2 ovals and the sidings as depicted in the A to extension layout

mark

[jane1707819582]

Hi 

just one more thing, do I need more than one set of DCC power clips fitted if I’m only running 2 ovals and the sidings as depicted in the A to extension layout

mark

Use a clip on every set of points 

[Mac-_-]

I would run bus wires a round your lay out, if your going to need more than one power clip, i personally think a bus wire with dropper's from each section of track is more reliable way of doing it. Also not as complicated as one would think, plenty of you tube video's out there to give you an idea. Plus if your talking ballasting it looks like it will be permanent, so would be worth the effort.

 

As for ballasting if using loose ballast, you'd be better too put your track down first. Never seen anyone do loose ballast then track, god it would be a nightmare i'd imagine. You can buy roll out track bed that as a ballast on it and fits the track, i have never used it. I have always used local stone for my ballast.

 

I wouldn't rush into ballasting till your hundred percent happy with your layout, in saying that if you use that roll out ballast foam you could plough on with the ballast, as you can lift it again if not happy or want to add things. Though not sure what way it would lift if glued, as i say never used it before.

[Chrissaf]

just one more thing, do I need more than one set of DCC power clips fitted if I’m only running 2 ovals and the sidings as depicted in the A to extension layout

 

In DCC, the whole point of fitting the R8232 DCC Point Clips, is that fitting the R8232 point DCC clips negates the need to use multiple track power connections using R8242 track connectors.

 

Read Chapter 6 in the (my) document I suggested in my last reply.

 

If you were going to make the layout totally permanent without the slightest thought of redesigning it, then a full DCC BUS wiring solution as Mac suggested could be worth considering.

 

Just to add some clarity to the reply by Jane. She means add the R8232 DCC Point Clips to every point, not the R8242 Track Clips. So far in our dialogue you seem to be mixing up the terms for these two different products. I don't think she realised that the term you used in your post was talking about the R8242 track connector. Or maybe she did, but didn't provide total clarity in her reply.

 

...as I intend to use these on an analogue only run track at a higher point on my layout in order that my grandson can operate this himself independently of the main track

 

If you intend to have a layout split into two, with one bit Analogue and the other Digital DCC. Then both parts of the layout MUST be totally separate both electrically and physically. Thus no interconnection via points should be included in the design.

 

... I had intended to use cork, pin track down then ballast, aren't you then stuck with the same layout for years.

 

If you want the flexibility to lift track and redesign. It is possible to do with glued loose ballast (using non waterproof PVA glue in a 50/50 PVA /Water mix). But removing and cleaning up can be messy. If you just want a rough and ready appearance. Then I would suggest that you paint your baseboard track runs and/or cork underlay, if you use it, a light grey colour first to simulate ballast then pin the track over the top. Track pinned down with track pins is easily lifted. You slide a wide thin blade (wall paper scrapper for example) under the track where the pins are located and manipulate the blade. This raises the track pin slightly so that it can be gripped with pliers and pulled out.

 

I’ve seen people have ballasted before laying track, surely this causes level issues.

 

The last time, such an approach was suggested on this forum, it was shot down out of the sky in flames. Definitely NOT recommended by any serious layout builder. Worryingly, that technique was featured in an official Hornby video who should have known better.

 

[Mac-_-]

Surely i'm picking this up wrong, but your not going to have a DC loop/loops and a DCC loop/lopps together as in on the same layout. If so you'd need to be very careful of where you or any one else puts the loco's. 

 

I have two layouts one DC (loft) for my old stock that someone wants to convert to DCC  😢, and my DCC layout (in piece's at present :( ), not in the loft. As i say it must be me being silly ;).

[Flashbang]

Hi

Having read all the posts so far, I'm getting more and more confused! (Not hard these days!)  😮

You have two loops connected by at least one set of cross-over points. Is that correct?

All loops will be DCC controlled from the Select DCC system. Is that correct?

How is each loops power feed to it?  Have you used two Hornby Electo Point clips R8232 per point or have you linked outer loop to inner loop using two power clips or power track sections? Which is correct?

How many power feeds connect to the rails?

 

We know the Select is not faulty, as it powers up correctly when the two Track wires are removed from its terminals. So the defect is somewhere on the tracks. 

So to prove which loop is causing the problem remove all Electro point clips (staple like spring clips) two per point from all points, if they are fitted. Or if you have linked loop to loop remove all the linking wires.  You will now only have one loop operational.  This will be the one with the rail feed connection to its tracks from the Select.  Reconnect the two feed wires to the Track terminals on the Select and to the connection on that one loop.

Turn on the Select.. Does it now work correctly and power up correctly with just the one loop?  If so, then your problem is on the other loop and probably how its being feed or there is a short circuit on that other loop somewhere.

If the Select fails to power up with just the one loop connected to it, then the problem is somewhere on that loop.  You will need to investigate more closely as to the cause.  Possibilities are .... Wires touching, Something laying across the rails or Crossed wiring are the most likely causes.  But only step by step by step methodical checking will locate the defect/problem.

[Chrissaf]

I have the power track with buff buttons on it, and I’ve only got the R8232 clips on track no other clips have been used and at the moment I haven’t got the black 2 prong power clip with link wire connected to any of the track.

 

@Flashbang,

Saturday Night made a clear statement in the posted quote above.

 

There is only one power connection which is the R8206 with the capacitor that is probably causing the issue. He says in a later post that he is going to replace it with a R8241 DCC version.

 

He is using R8232 DCC Point Clips on all points.

 

There are no link wires between loops.

 

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi guys, just to be clear to everyone ( and thanks for all your input and help ) 

i have at the moment only the track power connectors on each set of points ( the ones that look like staples) I don't have the power clips 2 pronged black connected. Yes there's power to the select controller when only wall socket power is running to it, I only connected to my original piece of power track (buff buttons ) I have now ordered the digital power track black/ grey buttons. when I said I had 2 loops I meant 2 ovals which are comprised of the oval supplied with the train set plus all the extension packs A to F. and when I said I was planning to use my existing analogue parts for another track, I will use this above the existing layout and won't be connected in any way to digital layout and will be controlled by my train set supplied contoller and transformer, power track etc. so now we know the select will power up thru the mains electric and it's a new model I'm ok there, my next question is, if I went down the bus wire and dropper route, will this eliminate the need for digital black 2 pronged clips and the power connectors ( staple like ) . 

obviously I need to now wait for the new digital power track to arrive and install it. Should I remove the staple like connectors and move some points around the layout once this is new power track is fitted, or do I need to get the bus wire dropper materials ordered now also, I will watch the you tube video on it anyway and will read chapter 6 of chrissafs document. finally for now I don't see any reason not to lay down my cork and pin track, as I've marked it out and happy with where it's positioned on my base, obviously I will leave the pin heads slightly proud just in case

thanks mark

[Chrissaf]

Mark,

If I went down the bus wire and dropper route, will this eliminate the need for digital black 2 pronged clips and the power connectors (staple like).

 

Yes.

 

The staple like thingys are called 'DCC Point Clips' the use of the term 'power connectors' is what is confusing other readers.

 

By all means run the layout initially, with the R8241 power track that is on order in conjunction with the R8232 DCC Point Clips (staple thingys on the points). Once everything is sorted and running with that configuration, then that gives you time to plan a possible DCC BUS wiring solution at your leisure.

 

If you do then subsequently install a DCC BUS wiring scheme, then just remove the R8232 DCC Point Clips from the points. It doesn't matter if they stay in situ either, it makes no odds.

 

The main thing to note is that if you should implement a DCC BUS wiring scheme, connect the droppers 'one track location at a time' and check for a short circuit before moving on to the next dropper location. If you get just one dropper pair connected to the DCC BUS the wrong way round you will instantly get a 'short circuit' which will be a devil to locate and rectify if you don't check as you go.

 

PS - Have you proven the R8206 Track Power Connector with the BUFF press buttons is the cause of your issue, by removing it and holding the Select output wires directly against the rest of the remaining layout track?

 

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi. Yes I’ve tried the wiresfrom the select controller directly onto the rails, it just goes back to green flashing lights and E3 on the screen display

[Chrissaf]

Did you mean E0 rather than E3 or did you mean 03.

 

If you meant E0 then there is still something else wrong with your track.

 

I suggest that when you get the R8241 you start with one single track piece, and then add the track pieces one at a time until you find the one that trips the Select. Until you resolve this error it is not worth pinning anything down.

[Saturday night beaver]

Hi having looked at some images of the bus wire alternative I’m hoping there’s no need for it, I don’t have a soldering iron, multimeter or wire strippers nor have I ever had cause to use them, electrics definitely not my thing, a mass of wires under my baseboard with the grandkids occasionally around isnt what I had in mind, they will be supervised of course but kids are inquisitive. 

just Getting a bit frustrated a5 moment as I’ve invested a lot of money for about 20 circuits of the track only to find that I’m to spend more money to get going, should have bought a full DCC set from the start

mark