Pre-made Signals - Beginner question

[A J Rimmer]

Hi All, Good to meet you. First time poster on the forum with a basic question.

I'm not a railway modeller (although I build a lot of Airfix models etc.) but my son has asked for a model railway for his birthday (he loves the model railway in Bourton on the water).

Now, because he's autistic and we're hoping that this is something that we might be able to use prise him away from his electronic devices, my wife and I had decided to invest and get him something with some wow factor (although alas we can't quite afford DCC) as this might help get him into it and away from his games.

We've got him a Flying Scotsman starter set, some additional track packs to make a 2nd circuit (B and C - thanks for the excellent 'getting started' PDF on these boards!) and a 2nd hand Intercity 125 (we might also get a building or two). I've also going to get a second controller, power supply and the correct connectors etc. as per your guide.

This might sound like a lot, but we're going on the basis that we can sell it at a later date if he's uninterested...

Anyway, getting to the point...

One of the things he's asked for is working signal lights (Red, Green). It doesn't have to control the points or anything whizzy, just some thing where he can press a switch to change the colour and then manually stop the train next to them. The question I have is can you get this sort of thing with the switches already wired in, or is it something where I'm going to have to buy the pre-made lights, and wire in the switches, power etc?

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers!

[96RAF]

Hornby R406 is a basic sturdy red and green signal lamp.

It is wired from the accessory output of a controller via an On-On switch - one way red, the other way green. Hornby R046 is such a switch. Full wiring instructions are supplied, but you may have to do a bit of fettling to fit cable ends.

[A J Rimmer]

Thanks for that - Really helpful.

Would that be the R7229 Controller? (Which is presumably the one that comes with the starter set?)

I'm assuming you can only wire one signal into the accessory output?

[Chrissaf]

I suppose the question is do you want to focus on ease of installation, or focus on something that looks more realistic.

This is an area where Hornby have not really kept up with the direction the market is taking.

Hornby's ONLY [current] light based signal is the R406. This signal is very toy like in appearance and does not in any way look anything like a signal you would see in real life. The new version of the R406 uses LEDs. The R406 [it replaces] used bulbs, but still has the same R406 part number. So if buying second hand or new old stock be aware that the product might have bulbs which are less reliable in the longer term compared to LEDs. Bulbs get very hot and burn out compared to LEDs.

The R406 signal is dual aspect [two coloured lights] red and green.

In Hornby world, it is designed to be used with the Hornby R046 switch. The included wires with these two products use crimped terminals that insert into sockets on the switch, therefore it plugs together and doesn't have a need for soldering. However, the included wires have a finite length and may need extending.

If you want something more realistic, then there are a multitude of on-line suppliers who sell realistic dual aspect LED based signals in ready made and DIY kit form, but these will need a little bit more wiring effort to install using additional electrical switches of your choice. The switches would typically be SPDT [single Pole Double Throw] toggle switches. In English, an electrical toggle switch with three terminals that provides a "change over" switch function. Soldering would probably be needed to facilitate installation.

I am not aware of any signal products that have a manual switch built integrally into the product. There are however signal products that have sensors to detect the passing of a loco and then automatically switch from green to red on a timed basis, then revert back to green after a delay. These typically have an override function where a switch can be added to force the signal to danger [red].

But from what you have described and taking all aspect of your post content into account, it sounds like the R406 & R046 combination will best meet your needs if you are not bothered by the toy appearance.

Note that the included wiring has "ring terminals" for the connection to the power source. This is because the products have not been updated for decades [except the LED update], and are designed to connect to very old style controllers that had knurled nut terminal posts. Modern controller AUX outputs may not use these old style terminal posts. So the "ring terminals" may need to be cut off to suit the connection method supported on the power source used.

Note also that the LED version of the R406 will only light up if the power is connected the correct way round from a polarity point of view. So if connected to a DC supply and the signal doesn't light up, reverse the connections on the power supply output and try again. The R406 can also be used on an AC voltage source where connection polarity doesn't matter.

EDIT: My reply took so long to type that Rob posted and you replied before my reply was published. The R7229 has spring clamp terminals and is DC. So note my comment about removing "ring terminals" and voltage polarity when using LED based signals.

As long as the signals are LED, then you can power multiple signals from the same R7229 AUX output. The bulb version of the R406 draws significantly more current by about a factor of 10 times which is a significant limiting factor.

This is a very long reply and this is your first post, so to reply please use the "Reply Text Box" at the bottom of the page and click the green "Post Reply" button. The "Blue Button" is not a "Reply to this post" button.

[A J Rimmer]

Hi Chris,

That is awesome answer thankyou - that's pretty much all I need to know!

You're spot on that we only require something basic - this really will only be a 'toy' to begin with, and will be on the trackmat on the dining room table, so the R406 & R046 combination does indeed sound like the best combination. If he really gets into it (or if I do lol!), then yes I'll base if for him properly and do some proper scenery etc.

Your point about the terminals leads me to another question. I've always loved the Intercity/HST 125 and have been looking for a good used one for him (he loves Steam and Diesels) - I've found a couple of older Starter sets in good condition that come complete with the older style controllers with the knurled nuts you mentioned - would the contents of these sets (tracks, power supply and controller) be compatible with the new starter sets like the Flying Scotsman?

Cheers!

[A J Rimmer]

Hi Chris - just got your edit as well - thanks for clearing that up!

[Chrissaf]

The older style controller sounds like a R965. There is nothing to stop you using that controller dedicated for all your signals so that all available current from the track controller is available for running trains.

But do note this.

The locos in the old sets using the R965 controller are likely to draw more current than much more modern locos.

The R7229 and the previous R8250 train set controllers are very underpowered. The R965 is not significantly more powerful.

If you have not actually purchased the R7229 yet, and given that you have mentioned the older sets, then personally, I would divert any spare funds into the purchase of a better quality more powerful controller.

In answer to your question as written, the old sets and modern sets are compatible with the caveat about power consumption as just documented.

Modern sets will have Nickle Silver track, subject to just how old the older sets are they may have "steel" track. Try to use Nickle Silver track rather than the steel. You can easily tell which track is NS as magnets do not stick to NS track.

If you are going to loose lay the track on the dining table AND use the TrakMat, then do expect to get some operational issues. The movement of trains causes the track to move and vibrate. This can cause the track joiners to loosen and give power breaks. Points need to be very flat, this may not be possible when laid over a TrakMat and not pinned down onto a baseboard. The TrackMat is likely to have strong creases in it that give ridges under the track pieces. You may experience loco stalls on the points as a result. I mention these potential issues now, as it is better to be forewarned than to find them out the hard way.

[A J Rimmer]

Thanks Chris...

That's really good to know - so something like a HM2000 (R8012) or HM4000? (and maybe use the R7229 just to power the LED signals?)

edit - and thanks for the forewarning on the Trakmat.

[Chrissaf]

I would not expect any issues arising from using the HM2000 R8012.

Yes you could use the R7229 for LED signals. You could also use the controlled output to power general lighting. For example platform lights or internal station building lights. Being a controlled output you could use it to act as a dimmer for the lights.

The R7229 also contains a basic CDU, so it is also suitable for operating solenoid point motors. But to use this feature you would need the track pinned down on a baseboard.

[A J Rimmer]

Thanks Chris - I think I'm getting there, which is good as I've got to get ordering as it's his birthday in a few weeks!

I know this is a Hornby forum, but rather than the HM2000, what about something like a Gaugemaster model D?

edit - oh, and the plan (if he gets into it) would be to mount and pin it all when after we move to Wales in the summer.

[Chrissaf]

As you say this is a Hornby forum and there is a rule preventing active promotion of competitor products, so not too much can be said about the GM controllers. But they are very popular with forum members operating Analogue DC layouts and have a 'copper bottomed' no quibble Warranty.

[A J Rimmer]

That's understandable - but as it is I think I'll stick to the HM2000. The reviews on youtube are pretty good.

Thanks for all your help Chris (and Rob) - it's much appreciated! I'll let you know what I get sorted!

Cheers!

[96RAF]

Ref HM2000, there have been three versions to date, all look much the same from the top, but at the back the original electronics version has a large mains D-lead (like a kettle) and may / may not have an on/off switch. The later improved electronics version has a small figure-8 mains lead and an on/off switch. Just be aware if buying second hand.

[A J Rimmer]

Thanks Rob - I've ordered a new one so hopefully it'll be okay.

[The son of Triangman]

You could have a simple interlocking bar that attaches to two Hornby lever frame switch levers together. Both switch levers are thrown together. The two hornby lever frame switches are one green on-off switch for an isolating rail and one yellow on-on switch for the signal. When the Yellow switch is changed for the stop aspect, the Green lever switch is changed as well cutting off power to the isolating rail. It's a very simple interlocking, it's a bit fiddly but trains would stop at the red aspect of the signal. Hornby used to make an R.400 signal control set for a working semaphore signal that operated using an isolating rail section in the past as well.

[A J Rimmer]

That's a cool idea, thanks for that! I take it an isolating rail is a track section you can purchase that you just drop in to replace a track section? (or do you have to make one?)

[Chrissaf]

Search R618

[A J Rimmer]

Thanks Chris!

How does one of these isolating track sections affect the current coming from the power supply/controller?

[Chrissaf]

Good question,

I think that SoT may have over simplified his suggestion and not fully explained potential implementation issues.

Assuming the isolating R618 is inserted in part of an oval loop, Then track power has the potential to flow round the loop in the other direction, thereby circumventing the track break that the R618 has introduced. Therefore to generate a complete isolated track section to bring a loco to a standstill you would need two R618 isolators or a second location with Insulated Rail Joiners to create a dead section of track longer than the longest loco. This has a potential knock on effect, in that the switching to remove the power break and reinstate track power to the isolated section would need to be duplicated for each R618 (if two used), it all starts to get potentially complicated. If you only use one R618 to provide somewhere for a switch to be wired to, in conjunction with Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) at the other end of the isolated track section or another un-switched R618. Then you are weakening the reliability of the power distribution, because it can not come round the oval in both directions, the oval in essence has a permanent power break in the middle. This gets even more complicated if you have more than one isolating section on the same oval loop for multiple signals on the same loop. This could result with permanent dead track sections for which additional controller track power feeds would be needed to overcome the power breaks.

Personally, I would keep it simple and maybe your Autistic son would get more play value from operating the train controller and signal operation as separate task events.

[TVR1707822112]

@Stuart

I had a Hornby colour light signal and wired it up with the correct switch. The types of connectors are matched to an older type of controller, so I ended up creating an adaptor from bits of spare copper wire. I hasten to add that these signals aren't the best and maybe you would benefit from connecting them to an alternative output than the controller, as trying to move it is a nightmare. Also, the physical mounting connection arrangement between the signal and the track is dreadful. If it is going on a board, I would recommend screwing it in instead of using the included clip as it does not look very realistic.

May I also add that if you are initially going to run it on a carpet you ensure that the set has a 'TrakMat' to stop fluff getting into the mechanism. In case you haven't already seen it, Sam'sTrains has done a good video explaining the basics of a model railway, it is on youtube. Just search for 'Sam's Trains getting started with model railways', it should pop up.

Hope this is of use!

TVR :)

[A J Rimmer]

@chris - thanks for that explanation, I'm glad I asked! It sounds like an interesting thing to play around with, and something I might look into in the future, but yeah, for these purposes it might be better to keep them separate - I have vison's of him running the train full tilt into the isolating track!

@tvr - Good advice thanks. I will certainly screw it all down when I get the chance. I think some sort of stow-away board maybe the way to go as a next step, like the 6x4 ft table I used for wargaming when I was a teenager.

I've found Sam's Trains last night funnily enough - I watched his review of controllers which is why I invested in a better one.

[TVR1707822112]

@Stuart

Glad you found it helpful! He's a very good youtuber - I'd really recommend watching his stuff - it will help you make decisions as to what to buy. I've used I think 6MM plywood and 2x1 timber for construction of my baseboard, I would recommend making the baseboard bigger than the trackmat so you/he can add some extra scenery in the future if you/he so wish, or even add extra track! Another tip would be to lay the track on 4mm cork when on a baseboard, to help realism and better running. Hornby Magazine and Railway Modeller magazines have helpful guides which may be of use to you. You needn't buy just these two magazines - BRM and model rail are sometimes good as well.

Let me (or anyone else!) know if you need more help - that's what we're here for!

Best wishes!

[A J Rimmer]

@tvr - Thanks for the advice - you guys have been superb! :-D

[TVR1707822112]

@Stuart

Glad you found it helpful!

grinning

[A J Rimmer]

Hi All,

Just wanted to thank you all for your help a few weeks back - I managed to get my son's new track up and running complete with working signals.

Here're are a few shots.

Close up - waiting at the lights!