Model shops heading to ruin

[Rallymatt]

Today I spoke with 2 model shops and there have been a few over last 6 weeks as I buy kit for my TT120 layout.

I think the concept of ‘model Railway shops’ has a very short future if the comments made are genuine feelings.

1/ You hate Hornby because they are selling TT120 direct.

2/ You won’t commit to TT120 because it has no proven market

3/ TT was tried before and failed

4/ Every other model Railway manufacturer won’t touch it with a barge pole

Hmmm Hornby have created an entire system and a pretty comprehensive launch catalogue, and they have not asked the retail shops to take any risk, because you don’t want to, you said that.

TT 3 from Triang was a lifetime ago and not in the same league, but the fact so much still exists and entertains would suggest it didn’t fail…

The market dictates, I reckon Hornby has sold several 1000 sets across Scotsman and Easterner, and it will grow.

Model shops and other manufacturers need to put their big boy/girl pants on and get with the programme. If you (and I know plenty are in the club) don’t give us customers what we want, we will get it elsewhere and yes, online is happening, I can buy from anywhere in the world from my phone before I have had my breakfast (Lavazza not Earl Grey)

Over the past 6 weeks or so I have been told so much misinformation by various retailers relating to Hornby and TT120, it makes me quite angry that you even think I believe you, when I answer ‘really?’ that’s not what thought is going through my mind… it’s usually end and bell rearranged

[Magna]

I’m new to the hobby…. I have little or no interest, history, or emotional attachment to local model shops… I can do a thousand times as much research on the internet, and spend as long as I like examining potential purchases in minute detail… and get a wide range of opinions and suggestions that look at the pros and cons of every product from every angle, not just one entrenched position…. If I want to go to a model shop, it’ll be infrequently, and i’ll be happy to travel to a well stocked, large one.

95% of my spend is online nowadays, and I don’t think i’m an outlier. Why would I take a different approach for my new found interest in model railways?

I’ve spent the best part of a grand this month, every penny online. Any retailer that can’t adapt to that reality is IMO, on a long slow slide towards closure, whereas those that create a decent online presence, find a niche and engage with their community online will probably thrive.

[SMR248]

You can hardly expect them to be enthusiastic about this, can you?

Other than a few Peco crumbs off the table there's not exactly much in this for them at this moment in time.

Most model shops need to sell stuff in order to make some sort of profit in order to stay in business. Not much opportunity here, is there?

[ColinB]

For TT is a non starter as I have an extensive OO collection, but here are my thoughts. If Hornby are the only outlet for TT then you will need to be patient if they release models with the frequency that they do in OO. Of course there will be a rush in the beginning, but eventually they will lose interest.

Model shops have a difficult life, the successful ones embrace mail order to give them a steady income but still have a physical presence so if a customer wants to look at a model they can. When I holiday around York, there is am extremely good one in York itself. Admittedly it is expensive but I do buy the odd loco from them at full price. It is worth it for the fact they stock so much. If you want such things as paint, mail order is really difficult especially if you only want one spray can. Yes I have been to the model shops where they would rather talk to their mates than serve you but most of those seem to have disappeared.

[ntpntpntp]

I do kind of feel sorry for model shops, but I'm afraid times and shopping habits have changed.

Back in the 90s my local model shop was in my town, it was a typical small shop piled with shelves of kits and bits and cabinets of models, and most fortunate for me that they kept a good range of Continental stuff which has been my main interest since the early 80s. I used the shop regularly.

Then I moved away, nearer my job. That same shop was still my best "local" choice (now 30+ miles away) and I'd pop up there from time to time. Gradually mail order took over for my purchases, I'd use the big box shifters for best price for common bits and pieces although that small model shop wasn't uncompetitive. Then along came shopping online and that's pretty much the only channel I've used for the past couple of decades other than maybe sometimes pick up something at an exhibition. If I buy something from a shop nowadays it's via their ebay presence, and just as likely to be from Germany as the UK.

[Fishmanoz]

My local model shop in Sydney has now been in business for 87 years (look out! Devil’s number short of 100) and has recently been expanding to more suburban shopping malls, so something must be working for them. They do online as well.

I remember as a kid, me and my best friend salivating over brands like Fleischmann that we could never hope to afford. The Tri-ang set Santa brought one year kept me happy though.

Do I buy a lot from them - not recently, but clearly some do.

On TT, they are not one that has been favored as a retailer by SMS via their exclusive arrangement with Hornby. I’m taking that as a positive because I will not be buying anything TT via that SMS arrangement. I’ll be making address arrangements with an overseas friend so I can continue buying direct from Hornby. Putting barriers like this in place in today’s world is just asking for fewer sales and that’s not a very good long term strategy for mine.

[Nightraker]

Not sure but I thought I had seen it on Hornbys's website that postage to Australia was a no go??? As they are appointing a Australian Agent in the near future...Iay be wrong????

[Fishmanoz]

Nightraker, take a look at the “Australian sticker price shock” thread which covers this in detail.

But in short - Hornby have appointed Southern Model Supplies (SMS) as their agent and SMS has in turn appointed 10 only retailers. The arrangement means Hornby can’t supply to Aust delivery addresses and so can’t offer their 15% membership deal to Aussies.

The SMS-appointed retailers are quoting eye-wateringly high markups online for sets, not so much but still high for individual items, and no discounts. SK has shown little sympathy for us in direct communication.

There are some limited exceptions for those whose orders were accepted by Hornby before they were fully aware of the SMS limitation. I have an ROW membership they are honoring along with 3 pre-orders including the Easterner.

You’ve seen my distaste for the anti-competitive nature of this deal above and on the other thread.

[TT-Man]

As a kid I loved model shops. Who didn’t if they were lucky enough to have one in their town. In Sheffield we had several. I would sometimes walk miles to marvel at what they had in the window.

But the world has moved on. The internet exists now and the volume of online sales increases in all sectors every year. For the last two decades I have bought nearly everything in life that I buy, online. Model shops will survive, but only if they take a very professional and commercial approach. There are still some very good and successful model shops.

As for the moaners and whingers about TT. If they think TT has no proven market and will fail I don't see what they are complaining about, why would they want to stock it? As for other manufacturers not touching it with a barge pole, that is clearly nonsense. There are already people coming into the accessories market. I suspect they are talking about rolling stock. If TT does take off it is almost guaranteed that others firms will start making rolling stock. It might even be one of the overseas firms like Tillig who come in first. Tillig already make models representing 19 different countries that feature in their current catalogue.

Hornby have said they may go to retail in the future. If they do it will be after they have born the massive cost and risk of creating an existing market. Model shops will also still benefit from TT modellers buying electrical and scenic items.

[TT-Man]

A point I forgot to mention. I only returned to railway modelling as a result of Hornby launching their TT range. But I have already spent over £1,000 with model shops buying DCC equipment, track, German outline rolling stock, some buildings and more. I doubt if those model shops will be sending a percentage of their profits to Hornby to say thank you.

[Rallymatt]

@ TT-Man, absolutely. I returned to the hobby because of the Hornby TT120 launch. Similarly I have invested over £1000 in items NOT bought from Hornby, and that will probably be a similar story across the board.

The professional retailers will prosper, the ones making things up and with their heads in the sand (or should that be fine ballast) are quite literally hammering nails in their own coffins.

[Silver Fox 17]

I think there are two different scenarios here regarding model shops.

For people in their 40's, possibly 50's, and below model shops have been mainly sellers of ready to run models with the odd accessory like plastic sheet and glue.

For those in their 50's and over it was a completely different scenario. We (I am 70) did far more scratchbuilding, kitbashing etc and model shops stocked brickpaper, single nuts and bolts of various BA sizes, worm and cog gears, loco/coach/wagon wheels, valve gear etches, Hornby/Tri-ang spares like bodies/wheels/valve gear/couplings, whitemetal and brass chimneys, domes etc, many different kits.

That was when it was true modelling and you made most things. In the last 30/40 years that trend has gone with nearly everyone using and wanting it all rtr. Due to that shops stopped stocking all those items as there was no call for them and consequently not enough sales to warrant staying open.

Those items mentioned can sometimes be bought on line but not all and often with long delays. You dont see business's advertising brass chimneys, loco wheels although Markits do the old Romfords but very few shops stock them and never advertise them anyway.

The model shop in York is Monk Bar model shop and I knew it when it first opened in the early 60's, at that time there were about 17 shops selling trains in York but only 3 had all the spares. 2 of those closed late 80's for whatever reason and now it leaves just Monk Bar. I use it for paint, plastic sheet but that is all as they do not stock anything else I need for scratchbuilding, plus obviously no TT.

Modelling as such has changed and many shops could not keep up or did not want to. I admit when I go to an exhibition I do get fed up seeing the same models on layouts that are out of their boxes with very few 00 or N layouts having something out of the ordinary that is not rtr. Modern models have been good in some ways but spoiled modelling in other ways and possibly led to the decline of many shops, not just the internet.

Garry

[Rallymatt]

@Silver Fox 17, glad to hear Monk Bar Models is still going, I rode from Thirsk as a teenager to get bits, although the newsagents in the Market Square held a reasonable OO selection and would order stuff in (1980’s) so it too ages!!

[Hobby11]

You can hardly expect them to be enthusiastic about this, can you?

Other than a few Peco crumbs off the table there's not exactly much in this for them at this moment in time.

Most model shops need to sell stuff in order to make some sort of profit in order to stay in business. Not much opportunity here, is there?

 

 

Interesting view, on another forum there were a couple of retailers moaning about exactly that, when asked if it were made available would they stock it they went quiet, eventually admitting they wouldn't as it was too much of a risk! The contrary argument is that Hornby have done them a favour by shouldering all the risk, if it doesn't take off the retailers won't have lost out!

[Shunter77]

I had a spell experimenting with N but as I found that too fiddly had effectively given up and it is only the launch of TT that has got me seriously interested. The local model railway shop closed about 4 or 5 years ago meaning it is a 30 minute drive to get to those in the vicinity.

If I could be certain of what the relatively local shops had in stock that I might be interested in then I would consider calling in when passing, but many websites I have looked at in the past are not at all clear on what is in stock, what they have on order (or can order for you and be certain to obtain) and what is a pre-production order or even just an expression of interest in something that might go ahead if there is enough interest.

I would think that I am most likely to visit physical model shops in future if:

1, They carry a specialist range of non-Hornby locomotives and rolling stock. Which at the moment probably means European outline TT. To take a trip to shops in this category I would want to be sure that they had a decent level of stock available so that it was worth the trip.

2, I am passing and need paints, glues and other sundries that are not specific to TT and which to order individually mail order is not particularly cost effective from the postage point of view. (We do here have a general hobby shop that sells a range of paints and such like but nothing that is railway specific so that will be used for this type of thing where necessary).

3, The shop is located at a railway attraction for instance if I visited the Bure Valley Railway in Norfolk I would visit the shop there and have done in the past which is the reason for picking this one as example. This is probably the most likely type of location for me at least to make a spur of the moment purchase.

[Silver Fox 17]

Rallymat,

I guess it is because they sell so many various items, not just trains.

Before it opened possibly 62/63 time? they actually had one on Micklegate and for a short while both were open at the same time.

I preferred Monk Bar as it was only about 400 yards from where I lived.

In those days they still had new Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang TT for sale.

I know a couple of the lads who work there, one I taught workshop skills in the 80's, the other who is doing a small TT diaorama and who told me when the Peco TT was in stock and I drove down that day to get some, 20 miles now instead of 400 yards.

Garry

 

[TT-Man]

Garry you make some very interesting points. The way most people do railway modelling has certainly changed. I am 66. The layout I have always most admired is Peter Denny's Buckingham Great Central. He started it in the 1950's and it grew and evolved over a period of some 40+ years. He made all his own track, locomotives and rolling stock, scenery and control systems from scratch. A very skilled and dedicated modeller indeed. I have never had his skill or patience.

I have gone through an evolution with my modelling. When I was young and my pockets were empty I did a fair bit scratch building, bodging and tinkering (not a patch on Denny). As my career developed and my pockets became deeper but time diminished in supply, I bought much more off the shelf and RTR. Now I am retired once again the pendulum swings. My pockets are shallower once again and spare time has increased. For some time at least British TT will call on certain improvisational skills.

But lest we think the younger generation has no ability or inclination to scratch build we only to have to look at @markus who posts on this forum. He has made a beautiful layout with scratch built buildings, a catenary system and many other items.

[The son of Triangman]

An interesting thread. Model shops have been kept out of TT120 at the moment, this I feel is an error. Physical shops are a showroom for a manufacturers products, a chance for a product to be seen in the flesh by those unable to afford to travel or unable to travel to the big model exhibitions.

Also if there are no spares available to the shops you won't be able to just pop down the local model shop to have a TT120 item serviced or repaired, so when the model gets older and manufacturers don't have a part it's going to be make the part yourself or the model becomes a parts donor or cabinet shelf sitter.

[Hobby11]

An interesting thread. Model shops have been kept out of TT120 at the moment, this I feel is an error. Physical shops are a showroom for a manufacturers products, a chance for a product to be seen in the flesh by those unable to afford to travel or unable to travel to the big model exhibitions.

Also if there are no spares available to the shops you won't be able to just pop down the local model shop to have a TT120 item serviced or repaired, so when the model gets older and manufacturers don't have a part it's going to be make the part yourself or the model becomes a parts donor or cabinet shelf sitter.

 

 

As I said earlier it's a two edged sword, several retailers on another forum have openly admitted that they wouldn't stock Hornby TT as it's too much of a gamble for them! Yes there is the physical showroom aspect, but there are few model railway shops around these days and most people are used to buying online, sight unseen, so I don't think that is a big issue these days. I suspect we will see some TT120 layouts out and about at exhibitions pretty quickly as well.

 

 

Regarding servicing and repairs the mechanisms will be similar to ones in other scales and so will be able to be serviced in the same way, regards spares i suspect 3D printing will be used, the same as it already is for some US N scale stuff, like gears for Bachmann N locos. Nothing is unsurmountable.

 

 

[Rallymatt]

When I started the thread it was done to really open up the issue of Hornby’s initial plan to sell TT120 direct and how it impacts the model shop network. It seems like me there is a lot of people passionate about all parts of the hobby, that’s very reassuring. I know there are model shops lurking in the forum but as a whole we represent the customer in this.

On line is absolutely here to stay in the retail sector and while physical presence is a very powerful tool, its lack of is clearly not a barrier to market. 1000’s of new and used cars are sold unseen online now.

I want model shops to prosper an embrace the opportunities available to them.

I would guess Hornby has sold 3000 + sets in this initial launch, and that in turn will generate about £250 of extra spending on Non Hornby modelling items per set (very rough approximations as not every set will ever be more than what comes in the box but some of us have already spent over £1k)

That is a very very conservative estimate of an additional £3/4 million model shop spending…….

If I was a model shop, I would buy a TT 120 set and show my customers how it can become a fantastic layout with the bits I DO sell. Let customers try a static grass applicator, details of where and what to buy locally to make a baseboard, offer wiring up services, events to show how DCC can be used easily, scenery and kit making workshops.

When was the last time you went into a model shop and they had a layout?

The model Railway retail sector needs to get its act together, with TT120 Hornby has created an opportunity with no risk to retailers but the opportunity for the retailers to sell the high margin products to support the scale. There will be £millions going begging,

[Hobby11]

Good points, Rallymatt.

[Smallteasers]

Nightraker, take a look at the “Australian sticker price shock” thread which covers this in detail.

But in short - Hornby have appointed Southern Model Supplies (SMS) as their agent and SMS has in turn appointed 10 only retailers. The arrangement means Hornby can’t supply to Aust delivery addresses and so can’t offer their 15% membership deal to Aussies.

The SMS-appointed retailers are quoting eye-wateringly high markups online for sets, not so much but still high for individual items, and no discounts. SK has shown little sympathy for us in direct communication.

There are some limited exceptions for those whose orders were accepted by Hornby before they were fully aware of the SMS limitation. I have an ROW membership they are honoring along with 3 pre-orders including the Easterner.

You’ve seen my distaste for the anti-competitive nature of this deal above and on the other thread.

I got the impression that Hornby are tied into a contract with SMS and therefore had no option..

 

 

[Rallymatt]

My understanding is that SMS are concessionaires under an agreement that predates TT 120. If Hornby tried direct sales in Australia they would be in clear breach of contract, by law Hornby can only have 1 customer in Australia, SMS and they have the rights to dictate what happens along the supply chain to the customer.

The issue is with SMS if they are making excessive price increases although they would probably argue they are not. Ultimately they are having to bear the cost of managing TT120 like Hornby do across the RoW. This does give some insight into how distributer/retailer margins and costs affect the end user price and how direct sales are a bonus to RoW customers.

An exclusive deal was probably hammered out when things looked very different.

[Fishmanoz]

Don’t know if it pre-dates TT:120 but it only applies to TT:120. I can buy anything else online to my Australian address or I can buy non-TT:120 items from retailers in Oz other than the ten retailers designated by SMS for TT:120.

I just now proved that buy placing an OO pre-order and had no problem.

[Bulleidboy]

I think that most "model shops" rely on Online sales. We have two shops locally one is in town, in an old street off of the shopping precinct - so does get some passing foot fall trade, the other is on a small business site out of town - it is nice inside with a lot of stock on display, but the only people passing will be those going to the other units. I think they will both survive.