Blackbird Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Rather than add to one of the many listings currently debating DCC sound, some not on the DCC forum, I would like to add the the general debate with a new thread. I'm a firm advocate of DCC and the advantages that it offers model railway control and versatility. One of the additions to DCC is the application of sound, a welcome advance in the use of digital technoloy giving additional realism to model railways. Once purchased, and used, a DCC sound fitted loco can't help but be admired, and 'silent' running trains seem to have a lot missing. Now, in my opinion, the disadvantage. Whereas one, two or possibly three locos running with sound will seem acceptable, any more, and the 'sounds' become indiscernible, even if locos are standing idle. Although I welcome the the advances in the technology, I do think the expence is out of proportion to percieved advance. Judging by the overall reduction in digital 'chip' pricing, do think current prices for digital sound decoders are too expensive, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonBigBoy Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Hi Blackbird. I have not run my £119 special offer sound fitted loco yet, but have seen on youtube and I can imagine, at least on a small layout, the crescendo of different sounds from multiple locos would take some getting used too and would need managing - I guess finding a way of turning down the volume on all loco's could be a solution? Regarding the price. I think the £100 +++ being charged currently is not sustainable, and I for one will wait until a decent economical solution arrives. I read on another forum that an electronics buff had made his own sound solution from base components with a 'home' blown chip for well under £50. The leading manufacturers will continue with their high prices until an alternative knocks the monopoly out of them - then the prices will start to tumble. This is my hope at any rate. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher11 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Yes sound chip are too expensive and I refer to the ESU sound chips as fitted in the Hornby sound fitted locos. £100+ on top of the loco. You can adjust the sound volume on the ESU sound chips. Volume adjust can be allocated to a Function button. Giving 4 levels mute/33%/66%/100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher11 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 kingfisher113 said: Giving 4 levels mute/33%/66%/100%. Correction to that it`s mute & 4 volume levels.25%/50%/75%/100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonBigBoy Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 kingfisher113 said: Correction to that it`s mute & 4 volume levels.25%/50%/75%/100% Thats good to know Kingfisher - thanks for sharing. Just to expand on my comment above. From my viewpoint it is similar to this. When BluRay hit the streets I dug my heals in as I have so many brilliant DVDs in the old format. I refused to pay the extortionate premium for the new system with few extra components in the knowledge that the price would one day come down to earth. Years later I am now considering buying a BluRay player as they are as cheap as chips. I think DCC sound will follow a similar path. I am expecting (hoping) that an upgrade to sound in 5 years time will be an easy £20 per loco. I am happy to wait to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 It's Catch 22 GB. The cost won't come down until the volume (pardon the pun) of sales is bigger, and the volume of sales won't get bigger until the cost comes down. Funny you should mention BluRay players. Just bought one. :-) Haven't got any disks yet, but I have an HD tv and the output from my old dvd player isn't up to the job now. They play DVDs too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 What you buy now or in 5 years time can be dependant on how long you intend to live! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 If I can first repeat what I said on the 08 Shunters thread on DCC Sound costs, minus the sarcasm, as it gives an insight into costs and prices (not the same thing): First there are the additional costs of sound - electronic storage components for the sound file, logic circuitry to switch on the sounds, amplifier and speaker to play them, installation of sound parts in the loco, and finally the cost of recording and digitising the sounds separately for each loco type around the world. Then there's the fact that the market is smaller than the rest of DCC, which is only a part of the total market, which means fixed costs are spread across the smaller number. So there's a significant additional cost to DCC Sound. Then there's the market - being relatively new and with fewer players in it, they are able to command a premium over perfect market markups. And I think the big killer right now is the last point I make here. This unfortunately suggests that a comparison with Blu-Ray is not quite applicable. The big reductions in Blu-Ray are due to going from pilot production and premium markups to world scale production and intense competition. That doesn't mean prices won't come down for DCC Sound but the reductions will not be as great as we are talking very limited runs in world semiconductor terms. I agree with SoT on the 08 thread too - a much cheaper generic sound chip with loco files downloaded from a site is the way to get costs down. But this is chip and sound only, it doesn't fully solve the RTR market as Hornby etc still have to fit the chip and sound files into a loco along with the speaker and other plugs, cables etc. they will continue to charge a premium on this until production economics tell them to make a lot of their locos DCC Sound Ready just as they make them DCC Ready now. Once they get to this stage, you have the choice of what to fit and the price pressure will be a lot higher on the DCC Sound market to produce chips and files as SoT suggests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Hi Fishmanoz, I have to disagree with your comments; the additional cost of sound. Greetings cards are available with a 'sound chip' conveying a sound message cost in the region of £3, a basic card, would cost £1.50! Yes, basic, but the same principle and multiplied a few times Sound storage technology is cheap. The source of sounds, readily available, from the internet almost all availble, free, or you can record your own. It's the same as all sound recording technology, as with CD's the concept and basic developement will be expensive, but once established, relatively cheap, the sounds arn't copyright, unlike music, they are natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigwint Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 hi just to say i have half a dozen sound locos a couple of ready fitted hornby and the rest fitted with other sub £35 sound decoders, all these locos sound great but the ready fitted just top the pile for sound quality. but for price £35 takes some beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 May I add to this debate on the 'cost of sound files'. ESU, the manufacturers of the sound decoders, provide 100's of loco sound files to reprogram their decoders, on free downloads. OK, there are currently no 'british outline' locos available on their site, but doesn't this expose the cost/value of a sound file! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregd99 Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 As far as i can see the loksound files are in a proprietary format only playable on esu decoders. technically more straightforward would be .mp3 or .wav. the proprietary format tends to indicate that esu sees them as valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 So now you see the pricing model again - pay the premium price for the Loksound decoder and get easy access to "free" sound files. In my previous post I wasn't trying to say the whole process is costly but that it has a high price currently due to the premiums charged. In time, competition will reduce them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Post a new reply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Having just acquired a Class 25 with DCC Sound, manufactured by B*chm*n!!, I read with interest the comments about sound volume and being able to scroll through 4 levels + mute. The literature which came with the loco indicates that F11 is available to do this scrolling. However, when I try to use F11 from my Elite or using Railmaster via the Elite, the sound does not change in any way. Anyone got any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher11 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 St1ngr4y Download and install a free program called Decoder Pro. Once up and running you can ust this program connected via the Elite to read all the cv settings. Use the page which shows Function settings and you will be able to see if F11 is alloocated to sound mute/volume. If it is not tick the box(s) and write the new cv settings. Check out the program and all its capabilities before writing data. And don`t forget always save you original settings (cv`s) once downloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 kingfisher113 said: St1ngr4y Download and install a free program called Decoder Pro. Once up and running you can ust this program connected via the Elite to read all the cv settings. Use the page which shows Function settings and you will be able to see if F11 is alloocated to sound mute/volume. If it is not tick the box(s) and write the new cv settings. Check out the program and all its capabilities before writing data. And don`t forget always save you original settings (cv`s) once downloaded. Kingfisher113 Many thanks for pointing me towards DecoderPro and JRMI in general. Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you but I have had extensive problems with my DCC setup. I don't know whether I accidentally wrote a Cv or 2 without realising it, but my Class 25 has been unwell ever since I installed DecoderPro. The first symptom was that only the sound and lights was accessible through it's DCC address 0001. It would not move in either direction. After much trial and error, I decided that the only thing left to try was to reset the decoder by writing value 8 to CV 8, as described in the Bachmann leaflet which accompanied the loco. I did this using the Elite and a programming track. This, of course, caused its DCC address to be reset to 0003, and the loco worked as before with this address, in terms of both sound, lights and movement. I then tried to change its DCC address using the Elite (in the same way as I had done when I first got the loco) to 0001, as I had created a few Railmaster programs using the loco and address. After changing its address to 0001 via the Elite and programming track, I was back to the situation of having light and sounds accessible via DCC address 0001, but no movement. Address 0003 no longer works. So the interim solution is reset decoder and use address 0003. Which brings me to a related problem in Railmaster. As I said, I have several programs which run this loco, but with address 0001. In the Railmaster program editor, there is a button which is described as "Replace loco in program". However, when I press it, I get a message "You must first select a locomotive to replace in the program". I can't work out how to do this, and the Railmaster Guide .pdf isn't any help either. Incidentally, when I have the loco on the programming track and have DecoderPro try to read the decoder type, it displays "Found mfg 191 version 255; no such manufacturer defined." Is this a problem with the decoder, the Elite, or DecoderPro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Hi Kingfisher113, I have replied to your answer, but the message is being vetted!! I must have spelt something wrongly and they think its a swear word. I can't even view what I sent because, unlike email, you can't see a copy until it actually gets posted in the forum. Since I can't remember everything I put in the message, I'll wait a day or two to see if they allow it through, otherwise I'll have to try to recompose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 kingfisher113 said: St1ngr4y Download and install a free program called Decoder Pro. Once up and running you can ust this program connected via the Elite to read all the cv settings. Use the page which shows Function settings and you will be able to see if F11 is alloocated to sound mute/volume. If it is not tick the box(s) and write the new cv settings. Check out the program and all its capabilities before writing data. And don`t forget always save you original settings (cv`s) once downloaded. My previous reply seems to have disappeared into a black hole, so I'll start again. I downloaded DecoderPro (and PanelPro) and installed ok. When I have my Bachmann Class 25 on the programming track, and ask DecoderPro to "Read type from decoder" it reports "Found mfg 191 version 255; no such manufacturer defined". So I searched around the internet to see if anyone could tell me the make of decoder in this model (why doesn't the loco documentation say?). The consensus seems to be that it is an ESU Loksound probably v4. I daren't go any further with this without confirmation in case I somehow corrupt what's configured already. Can anyone confirm exactly what decoder is present in my Bachmann Class 25 loco D5183 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 St1ngr4y said: Hi Kingfisher113, I have replied to your answer, but the message is being vetted!! I must have spelt something wrongly and they think its a swear word. I can't even view what I sent because, unlike email, you can't see a copy until it actually gets posted in the forum. Since I can't remember everything I put in the message, I'll wait a day or two to see if they allow it through, otherwise I'll have to try to recompose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 It happened again. I sent off another reply and got : " Unfortunately your post has been held for moderation. This is due to the content of your post containing potentially offensive material. We apologise if your post has been stopped in error. Please allow 48hrs for a moderator to approve your message. You do not need to submit your message again " What's going on? Is it because the message included the word B*chm*nn (spelt properly)??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 I expect so. You're not allowed to mention the B Teams products on Hornby's forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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