What About The Bee Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 Thank you for the report back Simon. If you wish to further pursue your quest, I think the next step is Hooper themselves.As I have articulated before, a firm making bespoke carriages for rich people would very likely keep good records. The moment that carriage is for royalty, the game changes. Records would be meticulous.It is definitely worth an emailBee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-372339 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 The records are held by the City of Westminster Archives Centre, they have 30 files 1828-1959. Visiting and researching is likely to be time/cost prohibitive.The link is tenuous between Hoopers Intl and Hoopers & Co.'Hooper and Co closed in 1959, by which time they were a subsidiary company of the Birmingham Small Arms Company.' - not checked yet as from the brief bio on TNA.The same bio indicates Hooper & Co was formed in 1846 which ties in with what we know.I shall approach the restoration team at the NRM to see if they can shed any light on a makers mark.A working hypothesis for the date of 1845 is the orderly winding down of the company and clearing of the order books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 Hi Simon I have a reasonably important update for us. I can narrow the dates of the construction of Adelaide's Saloon, modeled in R40357. I have been searching online newspapers. The first important reference is in The Sun on 16-Oct-1839, in this article:Note that the Queen Dowager (Adelaide) travels by train, but that she rides in a mail coach, not the saloon. The second important reference is also in The Sun on 28-Nov-1843. Firstly, there is tremendous detail as to the consist. Secondly, pay careful attention to this sentence. "Her Majesty's Saloon carriage shall follow the Queen Dowager's, and be followed by a first class carriage..."From the sentence construction, it is clear that the Queen Dowager's carriage saloon is being referenced, otherwise, we would have another noun after the possesive. Date of construction is therefore between 16-Oct-1839 and 27-Nov-1843. If Adelaide had a saloon in 1839, she would not ride in a mail carriage. I can find many references between those two dates, referencing the Queen Dowager riding on the LBR on a "special train", but what that is, is never specified. Next bit of evidence appears in The Morning Herald, remarkably also on 28 Nov 1843. The title is "Royal Carriage for the London and Birmingham Railway." It speaks to the completion of the carriage, the interior of which is 15ft × 7ft. This must be Victoria's Saloon, as the article refers to the Queen, not the Queen Dowager. Further, it does not fit the description of Adelaide's carriage saloon.Now here is the interesting bit. The Queen's carriage saloon is reported as completed, on the exact same day we have a report of two saloons in use for the royal train. I would suggest to you that the Queen Dowager's Saloon must therefore predate the Queen's Saloon. It cannot be that Adelaide's carriage saloon was finished after Victoria's, otherwise it could not be in consist. Failing that, the only alternative is that they were simultaneously completed. Which, in consideration that Victoria's Carriage Saloon is a vast improvement over Adelaide's, an evolution of design without time presenting a conundrum. Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 I am well aware that the internet has Queen Adelaide's first railway journey in 1840.To calm those who would doubt my assertion of 1839, I present an image containing the entire front page, albeit illegible at this scale. The image also contains the banner, in which the date is crystal clear and the magnified story, which appears on that front page.Irrefutable.Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 The "Special Train" Series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-372339 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 LBR QV's carriage of 1843The Royal carriage13x7ft is QV's royal carriage built Nov 1843 (from multiple press reports), it was still being used as late as 1849. Note I quote 13x7ft, the majority of news articles indicate the descriptions came from a LBR 'press release'. LBR: From Liverpool Mail - Saturday 01 August 1846, 'The carriage was built under the superintendence of Mr Wright, the chief of the carriage department, and the internal decorations furnished by Messrs. Gillows, the eminent upholsterers of Oxford Street.'LNWR: Stirling Observer - Thursday 27 September 1849 - it was built circa Oct 1842 by Messrs. Wright & Sons of Birmingham & London at a cost of £1200.Mr. Wright, Wright & Sons coincidence? We shall see in the next post.Quoted article Sun 28 Nov 1843:'Queen Dowager's carriage' - saloon should have been referenced here?Next in the article.'Her Majesty's saloon carriage will succeed the Queen Dowager's' - the writer cannot include carriage or saloon after 'Dowager's' as it would not scan correctly ie repetition. As Bee has correctly stated it could also infer the Queen Dowager had a saloon carriage.Another verifiable saloon No.2: Morning Post - Friday 17 October 1845 'were conducted to the saloon-carriage'Saloon No.2Does this imply a saloon No.1, if so and it was QVs it wouldn't have a number. So could saloon No.2 have been later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 Hi SimonOne thing occurred to me as I read, and re-read your recent post.Saloon Carriage.Saloon is the adjective, not the noun. Analogous to "brown carriage" and "long carriage", saloon is a descriptor, a characteristic of the type of carriage.Then onwards to re-read the consist description. "The special train for the conveyance of her Majesty ..... will consist of the following carriages and trucks". Notice there is no mention of a 'saloon' carriage in that section, although it is clear that Victoria's carriage is specified later as a 'saloon' type, other carriages as 'mail' and 'first class' type.'Carriage' is the general noun used to describe railway vehicles that carry people. The type of the carriage may or may not be specified.When the writer refers to "Queen Adelaide's carriage" in the article, there is no descriptor, at all. It could be first, mail or saloon. It is not specified. The type is ambiguous.Yet in the critical sentence, not only did the writer feel the need to obviate the descriptor, he obviated the noun, to wit 'carriage'. To me, it is clear that the writer refers to Adelaide's [saloon carriage]. Your mileage may vary, of course.Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 Regards the numbering, to wit: Saloon No.2Could it be possible that the 2 refers to Royal carriages? Not necessarily of a particular railway, but just of that rarified class of carriages. In other words, the enumeration of carriages used to convey Royal personages, independent of railway company.I have this Morning Herald article of 25 Sept 1840.In it, the GWR has provided a "...Royal Saloon carriage, which has recently been built by the company for the exclusive use of members of the royal family."Is this No.1?Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 This intriguing print, per the British Museum, is the Royal Saloon that Queen Victoria rode in, in 1842. The British Museum asserts that the print was made in 1843. A novelty, note the title on the print "The Royal Railroad Carriage" In my previous post, it was shown that the GWR had constructed a Royal Saloon carriage in 1840. The journey that Queen Victoria took in 1842 was on the GWR. Is the saloon constructed by the GWR in 1840 the same one the GWR used in 1842 for Victoria? The one in this print? I do not know but suggest it may be. Anyway, this print offers an interesting feature. It opens! This presents as a wonderful view of Queen Victoria, Prince Albert and her suite. A fantastic print, showing both the inside and outside of the royal saloon carriage on the GWR. Since this is the GWR, it has little to do with Queen Adelaide's royal saloon carriage of the LBR. Different gauge, different railway, different royal personages. Even on 28 November 1843, when the LBR completes their Royal Saloon Carriage for Victoria, it is clearly not the same as the one Victoria used in 1842 on the GWR, unless they had a time machine and magically changed the gauge. The same point will be relevant vis any royal saloon carriage for any other railway. The LNWR royal saloon constructed by Wright is not the same as the ones constructed for the GWR, nor Saloon No. 2 for the LBR by Hooper. I originally thought that the royal carriages then were like the ones today. Used all over the network, one set. Back in the early 1840s, it appears very much to be different carriages, specific to each railway company. Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threelink Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 You have it right, Bee. In the pre-group era each company that felt so minded built its own royal saloon, each vying with the other to produce the most luxurious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-372339 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Indeed there was the GWR carriage for the first journey in 1842, there is another GWR mentioned (refs not to hand so paraphrasing) 20ft long based on broad gauge...If the railway didn't have a specific carriage for royal use they would 'fit one up' vase of flowers and bunting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 I've dropped the Science Museum a note. The text under Queen Adelaide's Saloon No.2 indicates that Queen Adelaide's first railway journey was in 1840.Evidence I produced in this thread pushes the date to 15 October 1839, from a report in The Sun dated 16 Oct 1839, stating "Her Majesty Queen Adelaide having appointed yesterday to leave London by the London and Birmingham Railway...."I will update the forum with any result of this communication.Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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