Why does TT:120 cause such hatred from other Railway modellers?

[intlx1]

i for one am genuinely struggling struggling to understand what Charlie said that could possibly justify trying to have him "cancelled" with peco... I thought his reveiw and opinion were quite fair and balance and made some perfectly reasonable observations.

and for those who are moaning about the retailers missing out.... if you are prepared to pay 85% more for the product then by all means convince hornby to put the product in stores.

Retailers who are vocally outspoken that they cant sell it are also the ones who will stock the odd loco or piece of track and complain when only the big box retailers are selling it as they are the only ones carrying enough stock to satisfy the customers demand.

Here in Australia we have been forced to buy it from a local retailer at a significant markup (85% compared to buying it direct) because Hornby have blocked us from shipping to Australia in favour of a distributor who routinely carries no stock and marks up their wholesale and retail prices significantly. The same distributor also distributes peco and refuses to bring some product lines into the country.

SMS have received no samples or demo products to show to their retailers and in turn customers and don't actually seem all that interested in selling it, but are monopolizing on it while they can because the can.

As for availability... well there is still no sign of any TT stock on the horizon any time soon for either Hornby or Peco

[HST Mainline]

I just went and watched CB's review, I did not know he had made a review of TT.

To be fair: I don't think the review is that bad and I don't see him being negative towards TT. I see him pointing out a few things, the circle being the most negative, and rightfully so.

At first I was like "he must be doing something wrong", then I thought, with his experience, this can't really be the case, then I pulled out my Scotsman set to check for myself. It is real, it does not make a circle. I then remembered when I first put the tracks together, that I had a similar experience of them not fitting. At the time I thought I was doing something wrong, so I left it at that. CB is right, the track needs to be precise.

With regards to the coaches and the types of coaches in the set. As he also says, it is a starter set, so you can't really expect that much. My guess is that Hornby also makes some calculations in order to keep the costs down and packs the sets accordingly. This is perfectly understandable.

What I took from the CB review is that he actually seems impressed by the models, although they are not for him (because he is invested in 00, and has no reason to look elsewhere). Again, perfectly understandable.

He then goes on to make his point about the distribution policy, which I can understand, knowing what we have been told. Since I don't know (how could I) the full extend of the reasoning behind Hornby's decision, I will not comment on the distribution policy. Hornby might have more information backing their decision than we have been told. They probably have.

I actually think he made a fair review, but from the perspective of someone who has moved waaay beyond the starter set, and that colours his views. Ask him to review a 00 starter set, and I think his opinions would be much the same. It is just the way of the starter set, no matter the scale.

CB usually gives good advises, and he is not afraid to put out his own opinion. It gives his channel an edge, and others can agree with him or not.

Personally, I think a channel with an edge is a rare quality on Youtube these days.

[Hobby11]

His review, as I've said before consisted of two parts, the first part, the review of the set itself was fair and balanced, showing good parts and bad. Alongside Sam's review people can make a balanced opinion of the sets.

The problem I have with it, though, is that he went on beyond the simple review in the second half and started spouting his own personal opinions which he passed over as facts. Reading some of the comments on this page (3) of this thread I do wonder if people actually watched the whole video or just switched off after the set review section.

This sort of behaviour is not just restricted to his video but also many comments on RMWeb's Hornby TT120 thread and other model railway forums, usually different people spouting the same stuff over and over. Trouble is that it's all speculation by the author dressed up to sound like they know what they are talking about, when in reality they don't.

It's worth bearing in mind that no other manufacturer in recent times has taken the bold decision to introduce a new scale to a country that didn't exist before. It's all new ground. Hornby have spent the past 5 years planning the launch, they've got some it right and some wrong, no-one is perfect, but overall they've done OK. The people involved at Hornby (and it's not just SK, though he is the figurehead) have far more experience in the field than those of us on the outside (including Mr Bishop!!) and when you step back from personal opinions you can see why they've taken the approach they have, whether that be direct sales (quick return on investments) or the locos and stock in the initial sets (both high profile and popular choices).

Like Rallymatt I've been appalled by some of the comments on social media and just don't understand why people are doing it. However that seems to be the way of the internet, sadly.

[Rallymatt]

A couple of points of clarification,

the worst parts were what came out in the comments section although there has been some deleting and editing going on since.

CB did do some work on videos with Peco (so was representing them) but that ended some time back. Both CB and Peco confirmed this since, but to the viewer there is a clear association, the videos are still there etc.

I, like others have invested heavily in Peco TT track, so to have an ‘ambassador for the brand’ make disparaging comments is unacceptable. A true Gerald Ratner moment.

Since, Peco have seen and been at pains to distance themselves from comments made by CB and reaffirm their long term commitment to the scale.

Any damage to reputation or impact on further working relationships is entirely of CB’s own making. I am a complete nobody with no influence at all. I just really really dislike bullying. CB should appreciate that as a content creator there are responsibilities.

[Graeme1]

It’s great peco are confirming their commitment to TT. I’ve noticed though they don’t seem to be plugging the 7 panel wagon that was in their range any more though. It’s on retailers sites as coming soon but not on their own site. Shame if it’s no longer on the books. Apologies if this is too off topic

[Hobby11]

Can I make one request, please? Don't use the word "fanboy" for anyone who defends Hornby, it's both disparaging and in most cases inaccurate. Just because I may defend some of what Hornby do, does not make me a "fanboy", I am realistic enough to see that they've also made mistakes and I've called them out as well. The Easterner was the first Hornby product I've bought in nigh on 50 years so I can hardly be called obsessive about them (the dictionary definition of the word if anyone was wondering!).

[See See Rider]

I would say this thread has gone as far as needs to. Haven't we got better things to debate and discuss?

[ColinB]

I am amazed that many people would take exception about the review of the TT set by Charlie. I too watched the video and it was a fair assessment of the product Hornby is trying to sell, why Peco would get so upset by a person recommending that if you are going to run TT then buy their track, defeats me. There again there seems to be a lot of illogical people around at the moment. He highlighted that Hornby got their circular track calculations wrong and I do wonder how many people returned their set or thought that they were doing something wrong when the track didn't line up properly. As to the rogue piece of sticky tape, again shouldn't happen. Hornby seemed to have this attitude of "that will do" which I am pretty sure was what British Leyland used to say. It is not acceptable on a modern product especially when Simon spouts on and on about it is all in the detail, well they definitely didn't bother with that one and many other things regarding TT. I suspect Hornby ventured into TT as the OO market is saturated and currently Hornby are not competing on price, quality and features with the other OO manufacturers so they need a source of revenue. To mess it up on a brand new product just shows how poor their processes are. As to Peco they want to grow up a bit, before they go the same way. Also what he said about TT was fair, if the other manufacturers do not venture into it, you are left with Hornby and we all know how reliable they are. OO, and N are well established less so O gauge so is there room for another gauge? Who knows.

[Chas120]

"is there room for another gauge?"

Yes it's the reason for my purchase of a 120 set due to lack of space to accommodate an OO layout. As for Charlies review, it was obviously done in anger at Hornby for daring to produce something other than OO gauge ( did you not notice the edits in the review ). I agree with you on the track calculations and the small piece of tape but both easily remedied and if I can do them as a new 70 year old to the hobby then I'm sure anyone can.

[Rallymatt]

The track is correct geometry but the manufacturing process needs some attention, it can be corrected but that should happen in the factory.

[britishcolum]

Another thing that I think should be kept in mind is that Hornby have now tapped into a rather sizeable market on the Continent and beyond, people like me who have been fully committed to TT scale for years to decades, and now finally modelling British is an option too. On the German and Hungarian language TT fora I frequent the news of first Peco and Heljan then Hornby entering 1:120 was met with a fair bit of excitement and interest.

Welcome to the wider world!

[Hobby11]

I am amazed that many people would take exception about the review of the TT set by Charlie. I too watched the video and it was a fair assessment of the product Hornby is trying to sell, why Peco would get so upset by a person recommending that if you are going to run TT then buy their track, defeats me.

 

 

As I said in an earlier post I have no issues with the section that reviewed the product, it was fair and reasonable. The reason many of us (and, it seems, Peco) got "upset" (I'd have said we were disappointed rather than upset) was the rest of the video which expressed his personal opinions of the scale, Hornby's sales methods, etc., dressed up as facts and doing a fair old hatchet job in the process. I believe the video may now have been edited and toned down but I'm not going to waste any more time watching it again.

 

 

Hope that clarifies things. The danger with these YouTube wonders is that they sometimes stray from what they are good at (reviewing products) into expressing personal opinions and their followers believe what they hear and spread the "word" far and wide. Remember he makes money from it, so a little controversy adds to his coffers even if the person/company at the receiving end doesn't. Hence I'm not a fan of them!

[See See Rider]

The danger with these YouTube wonders is....

 

 

Absolutely! not just with Model railways of course, the YouTube scene is filled with too many unqualified egotistical losers who think what they have to say matters. Just stick to the facts. No-one cares what you think sitting at home all day with a camera in front of you.

[Comeonoaksey]

Peco allegedly “distancing” themselves from remarks made by a You Tuber doesn’t tell us anything. If Peco want to justify themselves they should do so by offering counter explanations to the views expressed. If they have not or cannot that just says to me that the views (which I found to be fairly straight bat) must have some credence behind them. For you to repeat the mantra “Peco have distanced themselves and I will leave it there” without further quote or explanation does make me wonder what it is you have against CB other than to criticise his honesty in a product that “you have heavily invested in”. If companies produce and sell a product to market then it is fair game to be subjected to praise/criticism by whomsoever. CB mentioned things that purchasers have indeed confirmed in their own experiences as has been stated here so it’s hardly controversial. Quite frankly you have done yourself absolutely no favours at all suggesting that CB and other You Tube wannabe's are leading their band of trolls on a full scale campaign against TT:120. Some of your comments are bordering on vitriolic quite frankly. I respectfully suggest you re visit CB’s video and try to watch it with an open and unbiased mind as your comments so far do seem to be just a tad over reactionary. Just to be clear, I think TT:120 is a cracking idea for those who don’t have as much space as maybe they wished they had, and after all in this hobby doesn’t that apply to us all whichever scale we model in? I hope TT:120 is a success and the teething problems that some have noted are resolved for all concerned and that you continue to enjoy our hobby.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Of course we don't know whether this also applies to other brands of set track in other scales. The only reason it’s become an issue here is because the set was available before the separate items. When was an OO or N gauge set last tested—by anybody?

[Hobby11]

make me wonder what it is you have against CB other than to criticise his honesty in a product that “you have heavily invested in”. If companies produce and sell a product to market then it is fair game to be subjected to praise/criticism by whomsoever. CB mentioned things that purchasers have indeed confirmed in their own experiences as has been stated here so it’s hardly controversial.

 

 

Please read what we said and not what you think we said! We said the product review was fair, it highlighted issues which many of us have had in varying degrees. So far so good, and both his and Sam's were in this respect very good.

However our issue with chadwick is that he then went beyond that and started expressing his and others opinions as facts and attempting a hatchet job on TT120 and Hornby. There was simply no need for that at all.

 

 

[TT-Man]

@D9020 Nimbus. I made a circle using Peco 00 setrack and Tillig TT Modellgleis setrack as an experiment. Both formed perfect circles and laid flat.

[Comeonoaksey]

make me wonder what it is you have against CB other than to criticise his honesty in a product that “you have heavily invested in”. If companies produce and sell a product to market then it is fair game to be subjected to praise/criticism by whomsoever. CB mentioned things that purchasers have indeed confirmed in their own experiences as has been stated here so it’s hardly controversial.

 

 

Please read what we said and not what you think we said! We said the product review was fair, it highlighted issues which many of us have had in varying degrees. So far so good, and both his and Sam's were in this respect very good.

However our issue with chadwick is that he then went beyond that and started expressing his and others opinions as facts and attempting a hatchet job on TT120 and Hornby. There was simply no need for that at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Comeonoaksey]

He didn’t need to carry out a hatchet job as you put it. Hornby did that themselves the moment it became clear that a circle of track is not a circle of track where they are concerned. Beggars belief quite frankly but if you're prepared to spend your hard earned cash on track that doesn’t even lie flat then good luck to you.

[Hobby11]

Oh I agree with you, they've done themselves no favours. But that wasn't what I said, his hatchet job wasn't about the faults, it was the part of the video about other things such as the direct sales which were put across as facts even though they were purely his opinions.

As for my spending, all the issues I've had have been sorted quite easily, I agree I shouldn't have had to but none were major. I know people who paid a lot more for a Heljan loco which was far worse and they weren't interested at all, at least Hornby are trying to sort things out.