forester Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 The point is they were not in "original" condition by the time the word "unrebuilt" was coined. They were originally built with a variety of front ends and cabs and modified several times to reach the condition most of us would think of as the unrebuilt state.So if Hornby were to issue a press release announcing an Original Merchant Navy what would you expect to see? 21C1 with a widows peak, naturally :0) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Ooops! That should have gone somewhere else.Oh well! The thread needed a bump up anyway.Sorry all.So as I was saying about N gauge............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortehoe Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Nah !!!!!! 35007 in Blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDR Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 mortehoe said:Nah !!!!!! 35007 in Blue.35029 in blue for me please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortehoe Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 LC&DR said:35029 in blue for me please! As long it as it can be re-numbered, I'm not too bothered. If it was 21C1 as built it does narrow things down a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 To me "unrebuilt" means that a loco has not been "rebuilt." I see no problem with that definition. I have just received an unrebuilt Patriot with sound. I know what I mean and I think most of my old trainspotting friends do. To me "original" means ex-works as first produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortehoe Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Graskie take a look at the first 10 in their various guises, 21C1 as built is almost as bad as the Rocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDR Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 In truth most locomotive types evolved in service, and the appearance will alter, sometimes only slightly, e.g. added AWS, different boiler fittings etc. others quite significantly. The Merchant Navy class really is an amalgam of three classes each having detail differences. Same also applies to other popular classes such as the Princess Coronations with significant smokebox (chamfered and full height), and running plate (split and complete) etc. changes between batches and over time. As to the term 'Unrebuilt', in 1950, when the last new Merchant Navy appeared the term was meaningless. 35001 'Channel Packet' was twice modified in air smoothed form, but by no stretch of the imagination could be said to be rebuilt. In 1956 when Jarvis introduced the rebuilt locomotive 35018 while the rebuilding of the rest of the class took place the term 'un-rebuilt' could be used legitimately to indicate that some locomotives were still awaiting rebuilding. However by 1960 when 35028 was finally rebuilt the fleet became simply Merchant Navy pacifics again. The term 'un-rebuilt' could be applied to the air smoothed Light Pacifics up until 1967, because they were to be found in both forms, and arguably still could. In theory those still 'air smoothed' could be 'rebuilt', although it is now highly unlikely. That to my mind seems to be the most logical way of referring to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 LC&DR said:That to my mind seems to be the most logical way of referring to it.I agree with your logic.Unfortunately railway terminology has never been logical in the grammatical sense, largely because historically railway men considered good grammar to be of little concern. As one CME said: If it doesn't make the engines run better, it's not worth spending time on!Wasn't it Churchward who used to put Collett down for his fancy language?So Air-smoothed if you like, but generations have used Unrebuilt so now we're stuck with it - along with Right-away, Notching-up and many similar horrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Does 'unrebuilt' mean that it was rebuilt then put back to its original form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postman Prat Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Thats what I said months ago.Wake up at the back!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Sorry PP I must have been gazing out of the window thinking about going home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y9 Pug Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 walkingthedog said:Does 'unrebuilt' mean that it was rebuilt then put back to its original form?Derebuilt means that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Good one Y9. Or wasrebuiltthenderebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da4472vid Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 walkingthedog said:Good one Y9. Or was rebuilt then derebuilt.errrrr??????????? WTE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDR Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Postman Prat said:Thats what I said months ago.Wake up at the back!!!Sorry teacher, I was looking out of the window watching a Maunsell N1 clattering by with a Hoo Junction to Hither Green mixed goods! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postman Prat Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hi LC&DRIt's obvious that you and WTD should be split up - you're a bad influence on each other. Move to the front, both of you, but not together.No, not by thw window...................!!Stupid boy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDR Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Can I sit next to the girls please sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postman Prat Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I was expecting to hear that one from WTD, as he's got youth on his side!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDR Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 You are never too old to dream! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Postman Prat said:I was expecting to hear that one from WTD, as he's got youth on his side!!To quote Eccles, I haven't got a youth by my side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postman Prat Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I suppose you look at page 3 of the 'Sun' and say 'Memories, Memories'?? Those of my age, and WTDs, say 'Mammaries, Mammaries'LC&DR said:You are never too old to dream! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDR Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Postman Prat said:I suppose you look at page 3 of the 'Sun' and say 'Memories, Memories'?? Those of my age, and WTDs, say 'Mammaries, Mammaries'LC&DR said:You are never too old to dream!How can a huge ball of reacting hydrogen 93 million miles away have 'pages'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 If the solar body (as opposed to page 3 heavenly bodies) did have pages, how could you possibly read them over that huge distance? Although, I went to the optician's once and told him I had problems with my long sight. He took me outside, pointed to the sun and said, "What's that?" Of course, I replied, "The sun." To which he said, "Well, that's 93 million miles away. Just how far do you want to see????????" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 Just enjoying John Scott-Morgan's book the Original Bulleid Pacifics.Just a glance at the title leaves no doubt where he stands on the Great Unrebuilt Debate. But he uses Unmodified throughout the book. Isn't that just the same as saying Unrebuilt?Anyway, that aside, there is a wealth of pictures and information that I've never seen before. Highly Recommended (no connection with author or publisher).Could someone please forward a copy to Simon Kohler? ;0) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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