World Steam Hauled Record - may not be Mallard's?

[atom3624]

Interesting one this one - wasn't aware of it!!

Looking for inspiration / motivation later on in the afternoon, tired from preparing a monthly report, I started 'browsing' ... YT presented with the sad demise of 60532 Blue Peter hydro locked in full power during the 90's

They apparently estimated the wheel speed equivalent to ~140 mph, before the motion was wrecked - wheel tyres as well.

The rebuild must be close to her returning to the rails .... again?

Al.

[Fazy]

There was some great photos of the damage caused on the net at the time. I didn’t relieise it was that long ago now I would have guessed 10-15 years at most, scary how fast time flies. But has speed is normal measured by distance traveled (normally miles) over time. I think Mallards record is save. Has the distance was in only in yards before the big bag and hish that followed.

[96RAF]

That is a bit like revving your car engine to death out of gear at a stand still. Some Ford diesels were notorious for runaway fuelled by the oil in the sump leaking past the pistons into the combustion chambers. Same result, rev out of control until something breaks.

[What About The Bee]

Hi Atom

Ignore aerodynamic drag at your own peril. Mallards steam locomotive record will stand.

Bee

[AndyMac1707817969]

If the Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust realise their ambition when their new T1 is completed then there is a possibility Mallard will lose the record. Not sure what conditions the record has to be done under, does light engine count (who makes up the rules). Might be difficult finding rolling stock for such an attempt to pull. There is also the wisdom of building such a loco and then potentially wrecking it or at least never being quote right after making such a record attempt.

[atom3624]

T1 is an absolute monster - twice the size of little old Mallard if I remember, and 7' drivers to boot, not 6' 8". She's nearly as big as Big Boy 'herself' at 122' 9.75" as opposed to 132' 9.25" overall of BB!!

A4's are down as 71' 0.375" / 169 tons.

Maximum boiler pressure of both of these was 300 psi!!

According to 'Wiki', the drivers are the same diameter as Flying Scotsman / Mallard at 6' 8".

Very true comments from RAF and Bee wrt aerodynamic, and indeed rolling drag, but quite impressive such a large beast could, albeit momentarily rotate all of it's own 'hardware', with all initial inertia overcome to boot.

A very sad demise of 60532. Let's hope preserved steam can continue to circulate on the main line, even if it may be limited where and when.

There's mention that the Heritage coaches cannot be used on the mainline as they don't auto-lock - perhaps the Mk.5 coaching stock could be used - many are in storage?

Al.

[Rallymatt]

I think the dream of T1 taking the Steam Steam record will always remain a dream. Despite many claims it comes down to practicality. No US railway wants to allow such a record attempt, they can’t get insured or authorised by rail safety bodies and that kills the idea stone dead.

When Mallard took the crown it was a state of the art ‘in service’ loco running on a mainline with less heavy regulation. No railway company is prepared to disrupt revenue service and potential track damage to ‘maybe’ go quite quick with last century technology… to prove nothing. The whole point of Mallard and other high speed steam locos was the fact they were in daily service year after year.. not pulling 126mph but sitting at 100mph plus reliably providing a high speed train service.

As part of my motorsport engineering degree, I ran some tests on A4 in a wind tunnel…it’s a very very well developed shape, EB knew exactly what he was doing. T1 has an uphill struggle aerodynamically.

[atom3624]

Interesting addition RM, thank you.

Despite the potential prospect of 'Rail Wars', the idea is nevertheless interesting!

What could we counter with?

Rebuilt Mallard?

Rebuilt Hamilton - she is sheathed in the streamlined casing .... !!!

Next the Germans and French could kick off - often boasting they were ready to take the challenge before ... a certain event!

Al.

[AndyMac1707817969]

If the new T1 was to make an attempt I believe the plan is to use the 'Facility for Accelerated Service Testing' in Pueblo Colorado

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Technology_Center

[Rallymatt]

@AndyMac, whilst in principle it’s possible, as a Federal test facility, the level of scrutiny and modelling data analysis that needs to be passed before it’s even allowed to run is huge and probably beyond the practicality of a locomotive trust. To exceed 125mph would need the FRA to burn their rule book. It’s caused quite a stir with manufacturers.

[The son of Triangman]

There are two locos we could counter with, the proposed LMS cathedral class 4-6-4 version of the "Duchess" Princess Coronation class, the Princess Coronations had more to give from the front end, but the grate clogged at high output as was proven at Rugby, a 4-6-4 version would allow a bigger firebox and stop this issue.

The rebuilt W1, rummoured to have trashed the record on one occassion, it has to be a contender with modern improvements.

[atom3624]

So would the Americans counter with streamlined Hudsons?

A previous question was 'what are the rules'?

I suppose 'paying passenger bearing coaches' is required?

How many coaches, passengers?

Minimum weight?

Related to locomotive capacity?

Interesting with the LMS prototype - any pictures, streamlined?

Al.

[96RAF]

I may have to dig out my book about the LMS ‘bathtubs’ as I seem to remember a bit in there about racing and common sense kicking in, by order of management.

[atom3624]

Yes, if I remember, 6220 Coronation was entering Crewe a little 'hot' after the 114 mph run.

Al.

[81F]

Would there be any rules? Unlike the world land speed record and that for boats where there was a vey fixed distance and a set time to turn around, Mallards run was a rush down hill with a relatively light load in one direction only. I would also suggest that the LMS's previous success at getting the record was also not under exactly the same conditions type of controlled conditions.

[Rallymatt]

Rules… there are always rules! I think back in the day they were quite relaxed, dynometer car print out would secure it but… the official record now would require a whole bunch of extra considerations. At least the bi directional runs and a set ‘turn around’ time. Recreating the conditions Mallard set in the day wouldn’t count as a record today . It would be a ‘different’ record and I am sure it’s already been confirmed that Mallard would still be officially recognised as the Fastest locomotive of a Steam Hauled train.

[VESPA]

In the 60's travelling to Crewe with a 3 coach train, we calculated the loco 70044 Earl Haig travelled at 108 mph for about 3 miles. When the driver was told he said his speedo recorded 112mph. That was the 10.26 am from WBQ and usually had more coaches.

[atom3624]

I'm sure there'll be plenty of stories over time.

Many will be fish related, but many quite true, perhaps not able to mention at the time!

The Standard 5's were said to hit the ton regularly, with 6' drivers, the 9F's on passenger duties 90 mph.

I'm sure the Castle's, Rebuilt Scots, reworked Jubilees with their large drivers will have hit decent speeds.

The Bulleid Pacifics - light and heavy were said to be very free steaming .... and fast.

Al.

[Rallymatt]

I wonder just how accurate the cab speedometer in locos, really was. Certainly cable driven speedometers in cars were frequently wildly inaccurate and often suffered from ‘needle bounce’ which was the drive cable dragging and releasing in the housing.

Without a print out, I’m always wary of ‘Chinese whispers’ effect on such recounting 🤣

[atom3624]

That was my 'fish related' comment - Chinese Whispers!

I remember seeing some cars' speedos bouncing about.

It is fascinating just thinking of what some did achieve, not declared.

Al.

[Rallymatt]

I get it now Al, ‘it was this big’ by the time it’s been round the pub a few times, someone caught a great white in the local pond! 🤣

[atom3624]

Bazinga !!

[Rana Temporia]

If you want to look at rules, it would be interesting to see what the French did it by for the dual Electric traction speed record they held for years. They had a specially streamlined short train

I find this video fantastic, especially the music;

and another;

The 'smoke' coming from the side of the train is actually the ballast being ripped up. There is a second video showing the BB9004 loco but it's not coming up at the moment on Google.

[Rallymatt]

Thanks RT for those links, haven’t seen those in a while. I have some French relatives and as a kid going to visit, I loved playing with a Jouef Mistral. A visit to see the AeroTrain track was incredible though 😁

[Barry-350851]

The French use a few cheats when setting speed records, modifying trains with bigger wheels and bumping up the voltage of the overhead lines.