Hump shunting

[Dukedog.]

Hi All

Has anyone done a hump shunting yard if so what are the pros and cons.

Just thinking out load at the min.

thanks

 

[Rana Temporia]

An interesting thought. I am sure there was something in one of the magazines where someone built one using a home made class 13 from two class 08 locos. I think they took the couplings off the ‘front’ of the loco so it just shoved the wagons over the hump. There is defiantly a large Continental layout with an hump shunting yard on it.

Uncoupling the wagons from each other as they went over would be the next problem as would the differing ability of wagons to freewheel. Real hump shunting yards use wheel retarders to slow wagons down, I don’t know if it’d be possible to replicate this in a small scale without derailing the wagons, and if you got it wrong they would either stop short or hit any wagons in front at speed. 

Maybe magnetic retarders would work? If you used blocks of 3 or 4 wagons you would only need one to be fitted. Another option would be powered wagons (Kitmaster style) which could be driven to a stop. Easier to do with DCC than DC. It’s a similar problem as dealing with a model slip coach and I know at least one has had a powered coach to be driven to a stop at the station. 

[atom3624]

I find so much variability in rolling resistance, I don't think it would be an ongoing thing.

Wagons which can start very free-rolling can fill the axle box indentations with a little 'swarf' (tiny bits of dust and plastic) and require very frequent maintenance.

Great idea 'though!

Al.

[What About The Bee]

8 hours ago, Rana Temporia said:

Real hump shunting yards use wheel retarders to slow wagons down, I don’t know if it’d be possible to replicate this in a small scale without derailing the wagons, and if you got it wrong they would either stop short or hit any wagons in front at speed. 

Maybe magnetic retarders would work? 

One highly desired feature for me is Wapping Tunnel of the LMR.  Rope haul to the top of the tunnel, with free wheel rollercoaster run to the bottom of the tunnel.

I've thought about this problem quite a bit.  No definite ideas, and certainly no emperical testing of those ideas, but here goes.

In analog, it is a simple matter to power sections of track and not power others, by the use of insulated wheel joiners.  Insure that the slope will always urge the carriage/waggon down the slope under reasonable circumstances.  On that downhill slope, place some powered sections.   In the carriage/waggon, use the power to move a small solenoid.  The actuator of the solenoid contacts the axle on a small area.   So as gravity urges the carriage waggon down the slope, the solenoid provides an intermittent braking force.  

For the LMR the carriages and waggons essentially stopped near the same place, every time.  The final section of track would be powered, which provides continuous force to the axle, making it stop.

I recognize that Hump Yards would require a more variable stopping point.  This could be achieved with a time delay circuit, which pulses the solenoid circuit at operator command.  A bit trickier? Yes, but still achievable.  Indeed, at Hump Yards, the rail cars did bump into each other, it was not done in perfect grace.

Bee

 

Edited June 22 by What About The Bee
Also works for slip coaches!

[What About The Bee]

Hilariously, not "insulated wheel joiners"

Insulated RAIL joiners.

Asleep at the switch🧐

[Tony57]

One of the early Triang/Hornby track plan books showed a simple hump shunting yard, I will look to see if I can find it

The two issues I can see are how to uncouple each wagon if fitted with tension lock or magnet couplings as it goes over the hump then how to throw the points to sort the wagons into different yards or do you change points before you push the wagon over the edge?

Having watch a film on one of the biggest UK hump shunting yards some points are on the hill others on the flat, so it would depend on how many siding would be required.

[ntpntpntp]

I've certainly seen it done and automated in N and HO with the Fleischmann factory layouts that go out to shows.  I think they tend to use their Profi couplings which are a kind of complex knuckle with pre-uncoupling, meaning you can uncouple using a ramp and then continue to push the loose wagon over the hump.     The "shuffling" could probably be done nowadays with RFID tags, in the old days I think it was done using combinations of track reed switches and magnets under the wagons.

[What About The Bee]

Part of the fun would be the classification of the cars, at least for me.   Watching the hump yard work by itself may be fine for exhibition but on a personal layout, I would think operating the hump yard rail network manually to be the thing.

I would set N switches for N classification lines, independent of the number of points.  Then each switch fires a group of relays which cause all points from Hill to selected siding to properly configure.

Example: a tank car is about to come over the hump.  Press button 4 for siding 4, all tank cars.  The points along that path configure for siding 4, leaving the others alone 

So backing the cars over the hump is via your controller and selecting sidings is via your panel.

That actually looks to be fun!!

Bee

Edited June 24 by What About The Bee
Spelling

[96RAF]

An ideal task for a bit of software, reading a bar code or similar on each wagon and setting the marshalling yard route accordingly. Spin ups and retarders could be devised.

Nowadays these yards are computer controlled in real life but in the old days it was mainly manual.

[What About The Bee]

Oscar Paisley has video of a hump classification yard in action

https://youtu.be/Pkt_FJhg5VI?si=PjszVHUsi3wr5Kgw

Skip to 4:30

Segment runs to about 6:02.

There does not appear to be any braking if waggons whatsoever.

Bee

[96RAF]

UK hump shunting yards have wheel grabbers and spinners to respectively brake or accelerate a wagon according to need. The whole sorting operation is fascinating to watch.

[Rallymatt]

Just a word on the real thing, Tinsley yard (Sheffield) was one of the early adopters of computerised marshalling in ‘65 when it was first built, using punched cards to set the route for each wagon and the braking/spinning was controlled by another computer. It must have seem like space travel to men who had previously been used to running alongside wagons and manually applying brakes and uncoupling while moving!