Q1 loco derailing

[relaxing244]

Has anyone had any experience of the new Q1 loco continually derailing on Hornby points. I have just purchased the Southern liveried train, and get very frustrated at constant derailments over the turnouts. I do not seem to have any problems with my other

 

locomotives (which are admittedly many years old), although I have purchased, Blackmore Vale West Country class, City of Sheffield DCC Sound, Britannia, Herring Gull A4, and United States Merchant Navy class more recently. All these run perfectly. These are

 

all Pacifics with pony trucks. I do seem to have far more problemss with my 0-6-0 locomotives. Can anybody tell me why?

[Graskie]

There are plenty of threads on this site relating to derailments. Basically the locos with front bogies are guided by them and the driving wheels follow. Front driving wheels on an 0-6-0 are heavier and then more likely to derail. Check back to back measurements,

 

slow running to see exactly how it derails etc.

[relaxing244]

Thanks for that Graskie. Although I restarted my interest in this hobby some 4 years ago, I have never had the courage to join a forum, in case my lack of knowledge was seen as stupidity, but I guess thats the whole point of a forum - to get advice from

 

the more experienced hobbyist. This is my very first post, and I am sure I will need a lot more help on many other aspects of the hobby. My main interest is in creating the scenic elements of railway modelling, and although I love getting my hands on as many

 

different loco types as possible, I have very little knowledge on the technicalities when things don`t run right. I will search this site for more info on derailments then, and in the meantime, carry out the checks you mention. Thanks again

[LCDR]

As Graskie touches on above rigid wheelbase locomotives will also find track imperfections quicker than a locomotive with a front bogie or pony truck. As well as checking the back to back measurement (14.4mm) also check that the points are level and the

 

track leading to them is correctly laid. What you need to look for is a 'light' wheel, or one that is raising above the railhead, especially bad if it is one of the front ones.

 

Real locomotives overcome imperfections by having all wheels supported on

 

springs, but on a model there is little or no 'give'. Any 'twist' in the track either through points or at the start of a curve will be a source of derailment.

[2e0dtoeric]

As Graskie said, watch the loco very closely as it runs over the point, as slowly as it will go, and see what is happening. Then you may be able to see the cure!

[relaxing244]

Many thanks to all for your responses. I can see now why the 0-6-0`s are more of a problem. I believe my new Jinty`s can also derail occasionally, but not as frequently as the Q1. I will carry out all the checks you mention, and hope to find a cure. Some

 

of the track has been ballasted, so will need a lot more work if there are irregularities in the trackwork to remedy things. Still, that will teach me to carry out any track laying check runs with an 0-6-0 loco. Presumably, if the rigid wheelbase locos run

 

OK, the rest of my stock should be alright. Or is that too simplistic??

[naugytrax]

I must say that this is all pretty baffling to me. In all of my OO gauge locos with leading trucks or bogies, these are attached to the main frames with pivots or slots so that they are completely free to move sideways until the fixed limit of travel is

 

reached. Therefore they have absolutely no influence on the fixed wheels. The statement: "locos with front bogies are guided by them and the driving wheels follow" applies to full-size locos only, and not to models. The statement "Front driving wheels on an

 

0-6-0 are heavier and then more likely to derail" is also weird. Even if the weight on the front drivers were greater, and in a correctly-balanced model it isn't, the greater weight would surely make them less likely to hop off the rails, not more likely?

 

 

 

I did once try to add a sideways-acting spring to the front pony on a Dublo 2-6-4T, to see if the "steering effect" made any improvement to track-holding. It simply made the pony truck more likely to derail and didn't affect the drivers, so I removed the

 

spring and concentrated on smoothing out the track instead.

 

Of course, as people have said, you should check the back-to-back distances and the alignment of track, especially through turnouts. For testing purposes I would use a loco with a 2-wheel leading

 

truck, such as a 2-6-0 or a 2-8-0, since the leading truck is the most likely to derail if the track is irregular (on many RTR models, the pivot arm is too short, so that the wheels are not parallel to the rails on curves). In my experience, if pony trucks

 

don't dance off the track, an 0-6-0 is very unlikely to fall over unless its wheels are out of spec.

 

BTW, my Q1 runs just fine on my layout (which admittedly is pretty smooth due to progressive realignments over the years). It's a slow locomotive, so

 

dynamic effects are likely to be negligible and any unreliable road-holding has to be a problem of non-standard wheel and/or track dimensions.

[relaxing244]

Thanks to all for your suggestions. I have now checked the back to back measurements between the fixed wheels with a 14.5mm. track guage, and they seem to be OK. I have also looked at the points that seem to be affected the worse, and although the joints

 

are a little bit apart, they do not seem that bad. The Q1 in question does run through a number of points OK, but I have now also noted that it derails on SOME, but not all, of the 1st radius curves. As an experiment, I ran the train without the tender, and

 

found that it ran perfectly in reverse (with no derailments), but still the same problems in forward drive. Does this give any clues as to other possibilities? Could it be a weight problem? I have no idea how weight affects the performance of loco`s. Thanks

 

for all the responses - I`m still hopeful of curing this frustration!

[Percybigun]

The fake brake calipers on the bottom plastic chassis plate are too big and restrict side to side movement of the wheels, which causes the derailing. Remove the plate and file down the fake brake calipers/pads, and use fine nose pliers to bend them back away from the wheels. The 2 centre brakes are the main cause of the problem, and when bent back away from the wheels, they then foul the connecting side rods, so its better to cut the centre two brakes off completely, or cut at least one of them off (you dont notice them when they're gone, and its a small price to pay for a useable loco).

another problem with the modern 0-6-0 chassis is that hornby use too much clear runny liquid lube on the lower chassis area, which gradually builds up on the pickups and wheels.

adding weights also helps, but will not cure the derailing caused by the grossly oversized brake mouldings.

i have many older hornby/triang 6 wheel shunters which never de-rail anywhere, but sadly they are afflicted with other issues (only two pick-ups, and/or magnets which short out modern points/sidings). This is why i got some new hornby 0-6-0 shunters, and was disgusted to find out the hard way that they fall off everywhere and soon develop jerky running. The time its taken me to fettle two simple loco's, i could have scratch-built decent kits, in future i probably will. modern hornby 6-wheelers are NOT "ready to run" as advertised. Why do they keep reinventing the wheel and cocking it up so badly? if they used the same chassis as in the 80's but with no magnets, and more pickups, the loco's would be reliable and useable.

the "oversized brakes causing derailing" problem started on larger b**hmann loco's (with tenders & bogeys), i've cured a few of them, then the idiotic oversized brakes spread to hornby (i first experienced it on cock of the north and Great Northern, which also have inadequate sized tender chassis wheel apertures, fouling side to side wheel movement - they can be filed out but its tricky).

i always expect stupidity in the workings of b**hmann loco's with their oval buckled wheels! but hornby have always run so smoothly, it pains me to see hornby copying fundamental faults from its competitors. 

manufacturers could make useable loco's that (mostly) stayed on the rails decades ago with limited technology. its odd they cant achieve the same with todays technology, especially with how the cost to buy new has risen much more than inflation.

[walkingthedog]

I would say that about 80% of derailments are due to poorly laid track. 

[NormanQ4]

I can't help but wonder if relaxing244 has waited almost 4 years for Percybigun's reply.  

25 Jan 2013 - 8 Jan 2017.

You could certainly call that relaxing.

[walkingthedog]

I noticed that. As I scrolled through I notice the first reply was from Graskie who sadly passed away a year ago. 

[GandalfUK449]

If it is the loco derailing, try the back to back. If that is ok, is the point a tight turn? It could be the tender coupling. On older Q1s there is a wide couplingand it is hitting the chassis of the loco, derailing the front wheels. Look for a thinner coulpling either a P2 or a Duke of Gloucester. This usually means fe-wiring the tender to the loco. The thinner coupling means it can handle tighter curves and points.

[96RAF]

@gandalf

You are replying to a 2017 post. Chances are the OP has long since fixed their problem - and your spell checker is not working.

[GandalfUK449]

Yes, I thought so.Also my space bar does not always work, either. I knowit was an old thread but I came across it looking for another problem andI thought. I had fixed my problem, I will share it with others. I am also dyslexic so I don't always spot spelling errors.