Programming to Automate your layout

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

PJ, you do know your syntax and commands are still wrong in your TEST 1 and TEST 2? They need to be correct in your actual program.

For a start, the syntax is ],0.5 without spaces and with a comma not a full stop,

otherwise it will still be doing the default one speed step per second. And it's decelerate, not de-accelerate.

Hi Fishy

I see the error of the . in TEST - 1 and TEST - 2 was cut-n-pasted from Test - 1 and modified

It is in my

program line
],0.5 bracket, comma, zero, point, five
Ray mentioned about was it as shown and mentioned spaces, maybe I misunderstood but then tried
], 0.5 bracket, comma, space, zero, point, five

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ_model_trains said:

Hi Fishy

I see the error of the . in TEST - 1 and TEST - 2 was cut-n-pasted from Test - 1 and modified

It is in my program line
],0.5 bracket, comma, zero, point, five
Ray mentioned about was it

as shown and mentioned spaces, maybe I misunderstood but then tried
], 0.5 bracket, comma, space, zero, point, five

PJ

How much easier it would have been, and more accurate, if we could cut-n-paste the code.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Good afternoon, PJ,

You can cut and paste to a certain extent, but because the program editor displays the program in a table, you can only copy a cell at a time. For example, open up a program in the editor and click on an item in the "Instruction"

 

column. The contents of this cell will become highlighted. If you then press ctrl+c the highlighted contents are copied to the Windows clipboard. You can then switch to, for example, this forum, and use ctrl+v to paste the clipboard contents into a post such

 

as I am about to do here:-

Forward to [25]

F1: Sound on/off

F2: Whistle 1

 

I pasted these three items by doing the above three times.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

St1ngr4y said:

Good afternoon, PJ,
You can cut and paste to a certain extent, but because the program editor displays the program in a table, you can only copy a cell at a time. For example, open up a program in the editor and click on

an item in the "Instruction" column. The contents of this cell will become highlighted. If you then press ctrl+c the highlighted contents are copied to the Windows clipboard. You can then switch to, for example, this forum, and use ctrl+v to paste the clipboard

contents into a post such as I am about to do here:-
Forward to [25]
F1: Sound on/off
F2: Whistle 1

I pasted these three items by doing the above three times.
Ray

Many thanks Ray, I realised after typing and sending the message

it was a table!

[RDS]

St1ngr4y said:

.. You can cut and paste to a certain extent ...

Ray,
I used the log file text to cut and paste the programming example I showed in this thread a few days ago. There was no need for multiple pasting. (and

you can edit them easily as well)

[PJ_model_trains]

RDS said:

Ray,
I used the log file text to cut and paste the programming example I showed in this thread a few days ago. There was no need for multiple pasting. (and you can edit them easily as well)

Hi RDS

Excellent

advice, I have just checked the log file

Many thanks

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

HornbyRailMasterSupport said:

If the loco is the B'Mann 31-213DS "Royal Signals", you may want to ask them if they have had any reports as there are thousands of RailMaster users who run B'Mann locos and the odds are they would know about

this.

Just to confirm the loco mentioned above is the correct one, Patriot Class 45504 'Royal Signals' BR Green L/Crest (DCC Sound).

I went to the 31-213DS "Royal Signals" in the locomotive settings in RM, at the bottom it allows

me to toggles through the sounds, there are 2 steam and 2 diesel. I tried the other steam option and got the same result although it didn't seem quite as bad. I will test again and will contract the manufacturer as you have suggested.

Thank you for

your help

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

RDS said:

Ray,
I used the log file text to cut and paste the programming example I showed in this thread a few days ago. There was no need for multiple pasting. (and you can edit them easily as well)

Nice one, RDS. I didn't

think of that.
Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

HornbyRailMasterSupport said:

We have many sound locos on our large test layout, most of which are controlled by accelerate/decelerate commands when running programs, to offer more realism, and we have never come across this problem. We use

Hornby and B'mann sound locos for testing to ensure full compatibility.

A 3000 character detailed message has been sent to the manufacturer this afternoon, we will see if they have any knowledge of the fault or what they may suggest.

It is certainly a strange one.

I have given them details of our discussions from page 6 of this topic on the forum and details of my layout at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83539-rael-dale-valley-railway-building-modelling-signalling-and-more/

The

reason I gave details of the layout is to show it is level, no gradients. The sound is like the train is trying to slow down while accelerating and trying to speed up while decelerating. Nobody raised this but with gradients a train could be pushing or pulling

against the raise and drop in speed commanded. I am just trying to consider every situation.

Taking on board HRMS comments regarding the control of the train with shunt and cruise being a single command for each and programmed acceleration and deceleration

at approximately 1 second intervals it does sound like a timing conflict which may be the sound decoder.

The only thing I do wonder though is, when recording and using the throttle it shows speed steps in the recording, when played back it doesn't have

the intermittent sound fault. I am assuming because it is recording what happened that wasn't faulty the play back is the same.

ANY comments form anyone welcome, faults though frustrating are there to help us increase our knowledge of what is happening

and how if not at the time why it is happening.

Thanks everyone for your help

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

I assume you mean ESU PJ, not blue box company. Blue box will likely know nothing at all to help, their is a faint but only faint chance with ESU. The answer will come from HRMS given the nature of what is happening. And my money is on a faulty decoder

 

as I've said before. Time will tell.

 

PS. Not trying to say you did the wrong thing here, just don't get your hopes up they are going to solve it for you beyond replacing the loco with one with a new chip.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

I assume you mean ESU PJ, not blue box company. Blue box will likely know nothing at all to help, their is a faint but only faint chance with ESU. The answer will come from HRMS given the nature of what is happening. And my

money is on a faulty decoder as I've said before. Time will tell.

PS. Not trying to say you did the wrong thing here, just don't get your hopes up they are going to solve it for you beyond replacing the loco with one with a new chip.

To

confirm, I wrote to the Blue Box company, they replied promptly with...

Thank you for your enquiry: I'm sorry to hear of the problem. however unfortunately we are unable to offer any assistance as we have no knowledge or experience of the workings

of the Hornby Railmaster system. We'd suggest trying running the model on a conventional DCC system to determine its correct operation. There are various thresholds set within the sound project and we've referred your enquiry to our developer in case he can

shed any light on the matter.

I wasn't building up my hopes as you say. It is their loco so I started there, then subject to their reply (now received) then I go to the sound decoder company.

[96RAF]

Good progress PJ, so you may get a definitive answer yet, but playing devil's advocate, if I was the sound decoder support man I would want to know what spec RM and associated Hornby controller(s) have to see what my kit was interfacing with for any effect

 

of inputs/outputs, etc to be better able to fault find.

Unfortunately Hornby has always played its cards close to its chest on similar matters - e.g. workings of the Elite, and I don't suppose RM will/can be any more open about their inner workings.

I'm

 

not knocking Hornby or RM as they have a perfect right to protect their intellectual property, but compare that with the amount of Lenz data made available on-line.

[PJ_model_trains]

Thanks RAF96

 

I also registered an account with ESU to leave a message on their forum and just wait for approval. est 1-3 days.

 

I understand what you are saying, I am just building up the picture in what I consider the right order. Discussion

 

here, HRMS involvement, contacted Blue Box Co and then ESU. That is just my way of working.

 

We will see what happens, my contract is with eH at the end of the day but I need comments/input/suggestions from all main parties first.

 

Thanks again

 

for your comments.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Does anyone know if any of these CV's for the loco giving sound problems could be part of the problem or worth a tweak.

 

I have today deleted the loco from RM completely, re-started RM and re-installed the loco but it has made no difference.

 

I

 

am cautious not to change any other CV as I do not want to cause a problem. All original CV's are recorded.

 

Royal Signals 4-6-0 3 Acceloration rate 179

Royal Signals 4-6-0 4 Deceleration rate 107

Royal Signals 4-6-0 10 EMF feedback cutout 128

 

Royal

 

Signals 4-6-0 57 Steam Chuff Sync 1 052

Royal Signals 4-6-0 58 Steam Chuff Sync 2 015

 

Royal Signals 4-6-0 67 Speed table 009

Royal Signals 4-6-0 68 Speed table 018

Royal Signals 4-6-0 69 Speed table 027

Royal Signals 4-6-0 70 Speed table

 

036

Royal Signals 4-6-0 71 Speed table 045

Royal Signals 4-6-0 72 Speed table 054

Royal Signals 4-6-0 73 Speed table 063

Royal Signals 4-6-0 74 Speed table 072

Royal Signals 4-6-0 75 Speed table 081

Royal Signals 4-6-0 76 Speed table 091

Royal

 

Signals 4-6-0 77 Speed table 100

Royal Signals 4-6-0 78 Speed table 109

Royal Signals 4-6-0 79 Speed table 118

Royal Signals 4-6-0 80 Speed table 127

Royal Signals 4-6-0 81 Speed table 136

Royal Signals 4-6-0 82 Speed table 145

Royal Signals

 

4-6-0 83 Speed table 154

Royal Signals 4-6-0 84 Speed table 163

Royal Signals 4-6-0 85 Speed table 173

Royal Signals 4-6-0 86 Speed table 182

Royal Signals 4-6-0 87 Speed table 191

Royal Signals 4-6-0 88 Speed table 200

Royal Signals 4-6-0

 

89 Speed table 209

Royal Signals 4-6-0 90 Speed table 218

Royal Signals 4-6-0 91 Speed table 227

Royal Signals 4-6-0 92 Speed table 236

Royal Signals 4-6-0 93 Speed table 245

Royal Signals 4-6-0 94 Speed table 255

 

Royal Signals 4-6-0

 

249 Min steam chuff 048

 

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, I have no experience with sound decoders, but a couple of things that occur to me:

 

- I'm not sure that the custom speed table has any relevance, given it is just a smooth curve anyway.

- the acceleration/deceleration values seem quite high.

 

Consequently, there is a possibility that they are having an effect on the programmed accelerate/decelerate commands, but I'm not sure at all.

- have no experience with back EMF cutout so can't comment

- I assume you have given this data to HRMS as

 

part of their trying to isolate the problem for you

- to some extent, CV values appear to be irrelevant as RM does its own thing with scale speeds etc from within RM. However, given it is a blue box loco, I'm not sure how it works for this loco.

- what

 

if anything does the ESU documentation tell you about setting up the decoder, and have you followed what they say?

 

I think the first thing I might try is resetting the decoder - write 8 to CV8 - then see if you still have the problem. If you try that,

 

you can then see what if any significant differences in CVs you end up with. And given you have a record, you can easily put them back where they were.

 

But like I said, I have no experience in this one and am just hypothesising, which is I hope better

 

than wild guesses through my hat. And I mentioned some time ago I took the corks off this one. Don't need them, there are no flies on me (as they say).

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

PJ, I have no experience with sound decoders, but a couple of things that occur to me:

- I'm not sure that the custom speed table has any relevance, given it is just a smooth curve anyway.

Hi

Fishy

I included the CV commands that I felt could be relevant although I was aware some not so. I did so because you never know, someone may just spot something.

You need to get locos with sound Fishy, if only one or two, they are more real

than steam. Some don't like them but I play with them more than any other, I will have more, I may take the plunge at some stage and upgrade my others. Are you waiting for TTS sound locos?

- the acceleration/deceleration values seem quite

high. Consequently, there is a possibility that they are having an effect on the programmed accelerate/decelerate commands, but I'm not sure at all.

CV's are as supplied, the sound loco was brand new, the only ones changed are Cv1 loco

value and
CV 29 to change forward reverse to match the correct direction the train was travelling in.

I add here these values to save looking back...
CV3 was 179 and CV4 was 107

I have tried CV3 - 180, CV4 -108

I also tried CV3

- 20 then 15
and CV4 - 12 then 9

I have since put them back, the train went faster and stopped faster but it didn't fix the sound issues.

Why did I try the above Cv values? On Brian Lamberts site it refers to CV3 and suggests, 5,10,15,20 and

CV4 he suggests 3,6,9,12
180 was a multiple of 5 and 108 a multiple of 3

I have since put them back as it was worse.

- have no experience with back EMF cutout so can't comment

Again included to see

if it raised any comments

- I assume you have given this data to HRMS as part of their trying to isolate the problem for you

HMRS are involved and stepped in on this thread. They said, this is a weird one, it is

probably why they have left it open for others to comment on the thread whilst they carry out tests on their layout.

- to some extent, CV values appear to be irrelevant as RM does its own thing with scale speeds etc from within RM. However,

given it is a blue box loco, I'm not sure how it works for this loco.

It is also a popular sound decoder and it is being processed through RailMaster so I was grateful HRMS stepped in when they did and do hope a solution is found.

-

what if anything does the ESU documentation tell you about setting up the decoder, and have you followed what they say?

I have not check it. When you buy a system and a loco brand new you expect them to work correctly. I am on the first

bend of the learning curve so cautious what I change. I contacted the Blue Box company as it was their loco but didn't expect a conclusive reply. They have passed it to their technical section but, RailMaster is not theirs so cannot comment on anything related

to it!

I signed up for ESU Forum as it took 3 days for registration, another reason for contacting the blue box company in the mean time, I see an email from them this morning it has been accepted so I will put the issue on their forum today. we will

see if they come up with anything.

I think the first thing I might try is resetting the decoder - write 8 to CV8 - then see if you still have the problem. If you try that, you can then see what if any significant differences in CVs you

end up with. And given you have a record, you can easily put them back where they were.

It is worth a try. I closed down RM and the computer. I deleted the loco from RM and added it back again after a restart. All the logical stuff.

To reset the manufactures settings and then test and rewrite CV1 and 29 as necessary can be done quickly. I will do this and test before writing to them on their forum.

But like I said, I have no experience in this one and am just hypothesising,

which is I hope better than wild guesses through my hat. And I mentioned some time ago I took the corks off this one. Don't need them, there are no flies on me (as they say).

Took the corks off... what was the celebration?

No

flies on you Fishy (as they say), only marks where they have been (as they say)

Your flies no doubt take bigger bites.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

What is the value of CV 29, and what was the value before you changed it?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

 

I testing the loco earlier.

 

I set all CV's to default and re-read them.

 

CV1 - 003 as we expect so I have changed it to 014, (010 to 019 is for this group)

 

I haven't changed anything else yet because I want to test it

 

in as near default as possible.

 

Previously it went forwards in reverse and visa versa. It is now going forward for forward? Interesting, why would RM read it differently previously?

 

I will come back to you on CV29 shortly as I am not in the same

 

room as the layout/laptop and was just checking, updating, replying other items on this computer.

 

Thanks for your patience

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

 

I have run various tests and everything is the same except...

 

Forward is now forward I didn't have to change anything this time? Previously Forward was Reverse?

 

CV29 was 014 I changed it to 001 to change direction and remove

 

DC and Railcom

 

Since setting default values it is back to 000?

 

I am looking at it now and think maybe CV29 may have been better as 3.

 

Dec value 1 --- reverse

Dec value 2 --- 28/128 speed steps

 

Dec value 1+2 = CV29 to 003

 

As

 

forward is now forward, would you suggest changing CV29 to 002

 

Calc. as

 

Dec value 0 --- normal

Dec value 2 --- 28/128 speed steps

 

Dec value 0+2 = CV29 to 002

 

Thank you for your help.

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi

 

It made sense to try CV29 at 002

 

SADLY same fault with sound on accelerate and decelerate!!!

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

2 sounds to me like the correct value. The other bit of cv29 I was interested in was bit 4 which has decimal value 16. This governs whether the speed of the loco is controlled through CV's 2, 5, 6 OR through the speed curve values in CV's 67

 

- 94. The default value of zero for this bit (which is what it is set to now) indicates that CV's 2, 5, 6 are used. I'm not sure why CV's 3 & 4 aren't included in this range of CV's in the documentation. Maybe someone else will know. Anyway, it still doesn't

 

explain your problem with the sound.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

St1ngr4y said:

Hi PJ,
2 sounds to me like the correct value. The other bit of cv29 I was interested in was bit 4 which has decimal value 16. This governs whether the speed of the loco is controlled through CV's 2, 5, 6 OR through the speed

curve values in CV's 67 - 94. The default value of zero for this bit (which is what it is set to now) indicates that CV's 2, 5, 6 are used. I'm not sure why CV's 3 & 4 aren't included in this range of CV's in the documentation. Maybe someone else will know.

Anyway, it still doesn't explain your problem with the sound.
Ray

Hi Ray

Many thanks for looking over it. I now have a better understanding with Cv's and CV29 calculator. I wish the train would have worked, returning to factory settings

after everything else seemed a good idea, bottom off and work forward. Going forward with forward command instead of changing CV29 seemed positive. Using 002 made sense also so I though brilliant, here goes, hopefully all sorted but, sadly not.

I have

put a message on ESU sound decoder forum so we see if that brings up anything positive.

I hope so. It is strange, I didn't use accelerate and decelerate or programming because I thought others were having problems (I was building layout anyway so was

busy). When I come to try it I am the one with problems here!

Very frustrating, thank you for your help.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

Instead of this:-

14.0 - accelerate forward [0]to [50],0.5

 

How about trying this...

 

14.0 Forward to [5]

16.5 Forward to [10]

19.0 Forward to [15]

21.5 Forward to [20]

24.0 Forward to [25]

26.5 Forward to [30]

29.0

 

Forward to [35]

31.5 Forward to [40]

34.0 Forward to [45]

36.5 Forward to [50]

 

See if the sound behaves any differently with these commands.

Ray

 

 

[PJ_model_trains]

@ Ray

 

Hi Ray you will see the coding times in the log file data below.

 

05/05/14 19:52:11 00:00 Executing: F1: Sound on/off for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:25 00:14 Executing: Forward to [5] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14

 

19:52:27 00:17 Executing: Forward to [10] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:30 00:19 Executing: Forward to [15] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:32 00:22 Executing: Forward to [20] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:35

 

00:24 Executing: Forward to [25] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:37 00:27 Executing: Forward to [30] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:40 00:29 Executing: Forward to [35] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:43 00:32

 

Executing: Forward to [40] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:45 00:34 Executing: Forward to [45] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:52:48 00:37 Executing: Forward to [50] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

10 seconds programmed from

 

50 to start of dropping speed.

05/05/14 19:52:58 00:47 Executing: Forward to [45] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:00 00:49 Executing: Forward to [40] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:02 00:52 Executing: Forward to [35] for:

 

Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:05 00:54 Executing: Forward to [30] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:08 00:57 Executing: Forward to [25] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:10 00:59 Executing: Forward to [20] for: Royal

 

Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:13 01:02 Executing: Forward to [15] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:15 01:04 Executing: Forward to [10] for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:17 01:07 Executing: Forward to [5] for: Royal Signals

 

45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:20 01:09 Executing: Stop for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

05/05/14 19:53:31 01:20 Executing: F1: Sound on/off for: Royal Signals 45504 SOUND

 

RESULT

 

Acceleration to 50 and cruise at 50 --- OK

 

Decelerate from

 

50 down to 0 and Stop at same 2.5 second intervals --- NOT OK?

 

Speed dropped on bar 5mph at a time...

A try to speed up and then slow down again, in other words a second or part second chuff or part chuff occurred at

30, 25, 20, 15 and 10mph

 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

It seems to me as if the way the sounds have been 'blown' onto the Loksound decoder is wrong. It might be worth sending the loco away to a firm who specialise in programming sounds. You can have a new set of sounds blown onto the decoder for about £15.

 

The shop I use are very good, based in Sheffield, advertise in modelling magazines, shop named after owner's granddaughter, I think.

Ray