DCC Hornby points

[rugbyboys]

Hi I have some smaller DCC sound locos who dont like crossing Horby points causing stuttering and sound loss, can any one give me some ideas on how to get around this, can electrofrog points from that well known track maker be just changed straight over for the Hornby ones or if not any other suggestions would be very welcome, many thanks.

[poliss]

Insulated rail joiners have to be used after the V of the frog and you need to add power feeds after the points if you don't already have them. Lots of info on Brian Lambert's page.

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html#Live

[Graskie]

I think electrofrogs help, although even they are sometimes not totally reliable. You can make certain adjustments to trackwork and back-to-back wheel measurements to improve matters, sometimes quite significantly. I used electrofrogs wherever I could before I went digital and, now having loads of and only running sound locos, I'm glad I did that. You can try to build in stay alive systems to overcome glitches in electrical contract from the rails but I haven't tried that yet. The smaller locos are, of course, more likely to have trouble because of their limitation on constant electrical contacts, compared to the larger ones with often quite a few more, especially if tender wheels have pick-ups as well.

[St1ngr4y]

If you go for "electrofrog points from that well known track maker", make sure you get the latest versions of these. They can be recognised by having breaks in the rails between the frog and the blades. They have done this so that short-circuits don't occur when not-so-fine-scale wheels pass between the blade and the stock-rail but actually make contact with both.

Ray

[rugbyboys]

Hi thanks boys for you help, does this mean that i can directly change Hornby points for electrofrog points or is their some difference in size and geometry,many thanks.

[Flashbang]

P**o Electrofrog points are a totally different footprint to any Hornby point. The smallest Electrofrog has a 24 inch radius curve. Also if two points are placed together to form a cross-over pair their straight track centre spacing is 50mm while two Hornby points give 67mm centres. You can of course use a cut piece of flexible track to bring them to 67mm though.

While Electrofrog points will help and improve any hesitancy when slow running over a point, there is another option. That is either fit a Stay Alive unit to the existing decoder or obtain one that has a SA unit already fitted.  Sound decoders used by Hornby are ESU V3.5 or later locos have V4 in the main ranges, not the TTS range though. Fitting a SA to an existing decoder may be more difficult. Some decoders offer solder pads to connect the two SA wires onto while others would need the two SA wires soldered to the decoders components, this is not a job for the faint hearted!

[Graskie]

Thanks for that, Ray. I didn't know that. Surely I don't need to replace what I have already? I must admit, I do have the odd short circuit on mine. Yet another reason for not having ballasted yet? I was already going to have a look at modifying mine as per previous comments on this forum for preventing that problem anyway but which would be easier for me? Never mind the money. I still have a fair bit of gold bullion left.

[Graskie]

Thanks for all that, Flashy. I have been rendered a bit faint hearted in recent years, so I don't think I'll try that. I must admit, surprisingly I don't think I have a loco with SA yet. It would be interesting to try one.

[St1ngr4y]

If you are handy with a fine hacksaw, you can make the cuts in the rails yourself, then fit two pieces of wire underneath to join the stock rails to the blade rails between the moveable blades and the cuts you have made. 

Ray

[Graskie]

I did wonder about that sort of thing, Ray, but I'll have to sit on making any decision (or incision, if it comes to that) for the time being. I have much more pressing things to do like getting fully up to date with RM, testing new locos etc.

[poliss]

One day someone will invent points, that don't need any modifications, and come fitted with insulated rail joiners too.

They will be in Setrack sizes as well as Express.

[Graskie]

Ray, I have just looked at the Peco website. I can't see the points you mention. Are you talking about the slips which were always in fact as you say?

[Fishmanoz]

From my last looking, they have insulfrog set track which exactly replaces Hornby but then Streamline in 3 sizes with insul or electrofrog and different dimensions and turn angles to either set track or Express. I've used both Express and Streamline in various parts of my layout design but used flexible track and it is designed in Anyrail to make it work. 

And the largest Streamline size has breaks in the rails which come joined with a link you can break when you wish to run DCC with auto frog switching when the point is thrown. For the other 2 sizes, you have to cut the rails yourself to avoid possibility of frog shorts. I say DCC because momentary shorts at the frog aren't a big issue for DC but they are for DCC. 

[St1ngr4y]

The code 100 slips are not available with electrofrog, only the code 75 I believe. The code 100 electrofrog points other than slips, are the ones I mean. It's hard to see just by looking at a picture of one, but if you look very closely, you can just see a break in each rail about 2cm from the frog towards the blades. Out of sight underneath they have a wire connecting the blade rail to the stock rail on each side. This means that on each side, the blade rail and the stock rail always have the same polarity, no matter which way the point is switched. Only the frog above the breaks in the rail needs to have its polarity switched.

Try this:-

http://www.modelrailshop.co.uk/images/prod_3873.jpg

Ray

[Flashbang]

Hi

Just to reinforce what has been stated.... All new P**o Streamline code 100 Electrofrog points now come with the factory cut (gapped) closure rails. The two gaps are linked underneath by fine uninsualted wires.  The only exception to this is the small Y point which mainly due to the lack of room between pivot and frog in the closure rails doesn't have the gaps fitted.      The removal of these linking wires should only be undertaken where some form of frog polarity switching is used.  

When using Electrofrog points its always best policy to fit two Insulated Rail Joiners to the two Vee rail ends instead of metal joiners.  By doing this and then adding new rail feeds after the IRJs your sure there wont be any short circuit issue occurring with these points.

There is no Code 100 Electrofrog double slip. The only DS in their Code 100 rail is an Insulated frog type.

[St1ngr4y]

@Flashbang

"The removal of these linking wires should only be undertaken where some form of frog polarity switching is used.  "

I'm not sure what you mean by this - could you elaborate please?

Ray

[Flashbang]

Hi

Normally some form of frog polarity switching is used on an Electrofrog point to improve the power transfer within the point. The reliance on the moving point switch rails closing onto the stock rail and making 100% contact every time is then removed, as the frog polarity switching is carried out by an external change-over switch. This is often a switch worked by the actual point motor e.g a P**o PL13 switch on a PL10 motor or on a Hornby R8014 but it can be a micro switch surface mounted and worked by the points tie bar moving.

Note: none of the above applies to Hornby or the P**o Setrack points, all of which are of the Insulated frog type.

So on the Electrofrog point, if you were to cut the two link wires there wouldn't be any track power beyond the gap. So the remained of the closure rails from the gap, the frog area and the Vee rails up to the IRJs would all be electrically dead. Hence the need to have frog switching in use when cutting the two links away as this then feeds power via the change over switch to the frog and the rails connected to the frog.

[96RAF]

Just to add to Flashy's explanation for the benefit of those people who may not realise the basic reason for all this switching of live frogs or why not just use insulated frogs. The frog being the little triangular shaped bit in the Vee of the point.

If you look at a point and colour one rail red and the other blue as they enter from the single end of the point and follow that colour logic across to the pairs of rails past the point.

Now trace the colours with the point switched one way, then the other and you will see that the moving (switch) rails  and the frog need to change colour to match the main rail colours. If not isolated in some way this 'moving colour' rail will cause a short circuit.

A picture to save a thousand words - Brian Lambert's site explains it with pictures here http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html . Click on the links about the various frogs on the right hand side of the page.

[Flashbang]

Hi

There is a little animated video on the BL web site that shows the polaity swaping occurring on an electrofrog point at the frog area and the need for the Insualted Rail Joiners on the two Vee rail ends..... 

[Graskie]

Thanks very much for your comments, guys. I checked in my local model shop today, and, yes, the latest Peco Streamline 100 code Electrofrog points do have the gap, some with just a gap but still linked at the bottom of the rails, and others with a piece of plastic covering the gap. I have no shorting problem on my insulated single slips, but, of course, the odd derailment or loco stall. So it looks as if I need to review my live frog pointwork one way or another because a short is worse than a loco stall, if not perhaps a derailment.