Train-Tech signals and set up in RailMaster

[PJ_model_trains]

HRMS IMPORTANT UPDATE

I have carried on testing the signals and provide the following information which not only confirms the signals work correctly it also, hopefully, helps narrow down where the fault is occurring so that you can check the software to find and correct the fault.

 

FIRST Load RM Pro

- point set as they should and 2@ 4 asapect signals start on STOP/RED - WORKING to here.

- Click 1 signal starting at default red, goes to 2 yellow then 1 yellow, 2 yellow then 1 yellow?  NOT WORKING

- Click other signal... exactly the same NOT WORKING

 

NEXT

- Go into design layout, open the schematic layout. Save it and exit

 

AT THIS STAGE

- signals go to red, 1 yellow, 2 yellow and green back to red WORKING

- tried second signal exactly the same

 

Hopefully this will help you find the fault a little easier, for me, it is after loading RM 

but is corrected when the layout is over-written in layout design.

I have only tested on the 2@ 4 aspect signals and after removing the signals from the plan earlier today, changing the file name and adding them back up and setting them again they do not change the points as the signal lights alter and the signal lights on the layout and in RM Pro match each other as they should.

[PJ_model_trains]

HRMS ANOTHER IMPORTANT UPDATE

Following the procedure above I have installed the 2@ 3 aspect signals as well.

Again when RM is first loaded signals after points set to start up colours Stop-Red or Go-Green

NONE of the signals work on the first click, they go out of sequence, only showing some of the light options they should show as mentioned above.

BUT, when Design Layout is opened, the file opened and saved then exited back to the main layout ALL signals work. Due to being out of correct sequence the first click, on each, puts them back in sequence and then they work as they should.

The problem therefore would seem to be in one of the initial signal loops in the software sequence in RailMaster.

Please email me through the support email for raising the post when you have an update to download so that I may test it again.  I am currently running v1.56 rev 8.

Thank you for your help

Kind regards

PJ 

[Fishmanoz]

I trust you haven't just posted that lot here PJ but emailed RM Support so they can see what is going on in your setup?

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Fishy

They confirm they are watching the forum, understandably at present.

The messages are added here and then an email was sent to them referring to the updates and the thread name.

The reason the messages are listed here is Ray has been so helpful as he is ahead of most of us with signalling and has experienced problems himself. 

Thanks for your concern

PJ

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

We are looking at this issue and will let you know findings/solution/update in early course.

[PJ_model_trains]

Thank you HRMS

We have confidence in you.

The problem definately appears to be following start up. I have loaded, saved and exited layout design and everything works when I do this. I have included another 7 signals in the plan (not connected to signals on layout) and all connected signals work.

I have then programmed a three aspect signal to control a route to a station platform changing two additional points. So long as I load, save and exit the track design plan first all connected signals etc. work as they should.

This gives me confidence to purchase another 7 signals this week, now we know the signals work as stated and the problem follows start up I have every confidence this bug will be found and corrected soon.

Keep up the good work, we look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi,

I've been studying the Train-tech track plan, and the section at the top of the layout is the one I am intersted in. I was surprised to find that all of the "other point/signal" information is contained in the last signal, port 30. When you mention relaying of signals in a group, I thought you meant that the automaticity was relayed from signal to signal e.g....

signal 30 single yellow causes "other" signal 25 to change to double yellow

signal 25 double yellow causes "other" signal 20 to change to green

In other words, the first event triggers a second event at the "other" signal

Is it supposed to work like this?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

I noticed that also and did wonder but was having to many problems getting signals working at the time.

I will watch for a reply.

PJ

[tony_forward]

Whilst we are talking about signals, I found this which may be of some help....

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/3-sigs/powersig.htm

 

[PJ_model_trains]

I Tony

I have seen and read a lot of these but do admit that the details are very clear in this example.

For those new to signals and the order they go through, in front and ahead of a train and carriages, the example with the heading below on that page is very clear 

Fig___ Four aspect colour light signalling

The zones, or blocks, or sections as they call them in the example shown, are also helpful with loco detection in our minds and no doubt on the horizon.

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

Not zones/blocks/sections again PJ. I seem to remember differing with you on these sometime ago. 

[PJ_model_trains]

Yes Fishy... Zones/Blocks/Sections

From memory the only think we didn't agree on was intermediate sensors.

We agreed on the sensors per Block but when I raised the subject of sensors between these blocks you didn't agree. I still believe to control speed and help stopping correctly we will add additional sensors between th main block sensors to reduce speed before the signal at the main block sensor.

Here we go again, hide behind your chairs guys.  ;o)

One thing I am sure we will agree on Fishy is... we will set up our main zones or blocks allowing for train and carriage length, then try it and see.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Tony

Following on from my reply above...

Getting an understanding of the signals in zones ahead and behind the train is a very important first step and signals at these zones/blocks will be programmed as the details in the link you provided...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/3-sigs/powersig.htm

See section...   Fig___ Four aspect colour light signalling

I think the fun will start when we take several up lines and several down lines and then add to them what happens when signals and points change where these move a train across them. What was a clear line or continue with caution line suddenly becomes a stop signal as a train crosses, which by its actions has to also change signals down and up line from that position as the points changed for the train to do this. 

It will be fun but... Keep taking the tablets comes to mind.   ;o)

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

HRMS have fixed my signal problem at start up. 

RAF96 said yesterday they fixed another problem for him.

These guys are working so hard for us all, we are so grateful. Thank you HRMS

They say, RM 1.56 Rev 9, should hopefully be available tonight, they still have a few small items they are working on. They will let us know when it is ready.

Now back to my day job... whilst I wait for the new signals to arrive I can now start and set multiple points and signals to work together on the first of many cross overs.  This will be fun  ;o)

[St1ngr4y]

@PJ_model_trains

Hi PJ,
Just an update on how I am progressing with my Traintech 4-aspect signals. I was able to download Revision 9 of 1.56, and this has fixed the problem I had because my signals have 3-digit (i.e. >100) port addresses. It had been preventing me from properly trying the "other point/signal" configuration. After the fix, I decided to try this with the signals as follows:

When Signal A changes to single yellow, Signal B changes to double yellow
When Signal A changes to double yellow, Signal B changes to green

The first action worked fine.

The second action changed Signal B to red instead of green, even though its icon on the RM layout diagram showed green.

Just for daftness, I changed the second action to:-

When Signal A changes to double yellow, Signal B changes to red

As a result (you guessed it!) the actual signal changed to green, and the layout icon showed red.

Ok, they are so close, so I continued my experimentation by configuring Signal B as follows:

When Signal B changes to single yellow, Signal C changes to double yellow
When Signal B changes to double yellow, Signal C changes to green

The results in themselves were exactly as I saw with the A/B pair, but I was interested to see whether switching signal A to single yellow, triggering the change of B to double yellow, would then trigger the changing of signal C to green. Unfortunately, it does not.

One more thing which I have noticed (and I'm afraid I haven't mentioned this to HRMS yet), in the examples above, if both signals A and B are showing red, and signal A is switched to single yellow, triggering signal B changing to double yellow, B's icon will show double yellow. If you then click on B's icon, it won't change to green, it will change to single yellow, because the triggered change hasn't updated that signal's colour sequence position. It still thinks it was showing red.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

Been testing, I am sure you have also.

You mention all the codes in the first signal, I noticed that also. But the example is only 1 set of R/Y/2Y/G

I have just set 3 signals, but lets say we have 4 in a loop. Using addresses 101, 121, 141, 161 the first (101) calls the R/Y/2Y/G and we give it the next sequence down the line for 121 R=Y/Y=2Y etc

Then, still in the first signal coding, 101, we look at the next but one signal down the line, 141,  and code that in R/Y/2Y/G  but the colours are 2 steps down so R=2Y etc, etc 

Then, still in the first signal coding, 101, we look at the next but two signal down the line, 161,  and code that in R/Y/2Y/G  but the colours are 3 steps down so R=2Y etc, etc 

That is one signal set up dropping in sequence for the 4 signal/stage down the line

What the example doesn't show.....

Then we move to the next signal address 121 and code ALL signals as we have in 101

Then we move to the next signal address 141 and code ALL signals as we have in 121 and continue the loop.

That would complete one loop (except of course for branch line cross overs)

We do the same on the next loop, and the next till complete

Or we have a break from that and start coding points and groups of points.(and how signals change as a result of these actions) Fun!!!!!

But, don't forget to play with your trains ;o)

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello HRMS

 

I now this is not usual at this stage but, I am pressing ahead with setting signals in loops, as you know there are so many settings stepping back to each signal in the loop.  

 

Settings in Signal-1

Signal-1 --- R/Y/YY/G

Signal-2 --- Y/YY/G/R

Signal-3 --- YY/G/R/Y

Signal-4 --- G/R/Y/YY

 

Then repeating these (but one step back) at each signal set up.

 

I have four main signals in a loop, this requires 4x4 entries for each signal to step back in turn, 16 entries per signal for this alone.

 

The space you give us to work with is just two rows, can you at least double this viewing area please so that we can see the repeats we are putting in much easier.

 

I will send an email for this but have included it here for others to see. 

 

Thank you

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Signalling cont...

I thought I had it sussed out then... seeing how signalling works etc, I am glad I went for the Train-Tech signals. In other words I have changed my plans but with these signals I can change them and move them easily.

I am not saying the following is the right way to do the setting up and every layout is different. I can only share what I found helped me.

First I have set my approximate zones/blocks. This is where I will need my signals, station signals and the like are secondary.

Then put two 4 aspect signals on one side of the track and none on the ther yet, but to test it out I have put 4@ 4 aspect signals in the RM layout plan.

Now the setting up of signals in position to the Blocks.

Last night I set up signal-1 in the loop, 4 aspect x 4 signals in the loop, 16 instructions to signal-1. 

Result: answers my own question! the two on the track change in order correctly, all four changed from signal one step and change correctly. Brilliant.

Today I will set up signals 2,3 & 4 in the loop in the same manner. At present all 4 signals work from signal-1 but they have to work from any signal changed so they all have to be programmed.

Once I get the outer loop working I will do the same form the inner loop and any others. After I have done that I will set the signals and points for branches and cross overs. When I started I did it in reverse order and got a little frustrated. 

The good news is signals change in the RM plan even if they are not on the layout. The question to follow this is, will points changed programmed from signals not on the actaul layout?  Time will tell.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Good morning PJ,

Just a small point. Are you setting up, for example, signal A when it changes to red to set signal B to yellow? Strictly speaking this isn't quite correct. Signal A should change to red when the loco of a train passes it. Signal B should change to yellow when the last coach or wagon of the train passes signal A. Depending on the speed of the train, there could be several seconds between these two events.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

Yes I am, Yes I have!!!

I understand that but, we don't have loco detection yet so we are working manually. Which would mean manually setting signal A to red as the rain passes the signal, no other changes at that stage, then when the last carriage has passed, change signal A to yellow which then changes all previous signals in order backwards.

At present, I have set 4 @ 4 Aspect signals in the layout plan, each with 4 colours R/Y/YY/G and each altering the previous signal in order.

Now when a 'train and carriages' pass a signal I click that signal, it turns that to red and all others one step in colour behind.  

It was a good learning curve, I think. Having now worked all that out I can easily change the pattern of events to the correct procedure you kindly stated. Working manually though it is another task when driving multiple trains.

I see another problem though, I will no doubt have two trains on that section of track at one time but, only have 4 blocks. This means two blocks in use and two between them not used. Therefore a signal stepping back 4 sequences can't work for me in practice. As train 1 passes signal A, train 2 could be passing signal C. As the last carriage passes the signal A all previous signals are altered but if train 2 carriages pass signal C it will want to change them as well or, one will change them and the other will over ride it with the last instruction.

It is good to talk  ;-)

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Let me play Devil's Avocate, PJ. Suppose you have four 4-aspect signals in a row, A B C D and this is also the direction of travel i.e. the order at which the signals are passed by trains. Let us also suppose that there is a station between C & D. Initially all signals are green. OK, train 1 comes along and passing signal A changes it to red. The loco then passes signal B, changing it to red. The last coach passes B, signal A changes to single yellow. The loco passes signal C changing it to red, then the last coach passes C, causing B to change to single yellow, and A to double yellow. The train stops at the station. So now we have the signals as follows:

A double yellow

B single yellow

C red

Train 1

D green

So it's a Bank Holiday Saturday, and train 2 comes along. The loco passes signal A changing it to red. The loco then passes signal B, changing it to red. The last coach passes B, signal A changes to single yellow. The train stops at signal C.

So now we have the signals as follows:

A single yellow

B red

Train 2

C red

Train 1

D green

Then train 3 comes along. The loco passes signal A changing it to red. It stops at signal B.

So now we have the signals as follows:

A red

Train 3

B red

Train 2

C red

Train 1

D green

Ok so far? Now the guard blows the whistle and train 1 departs the station. As the loco passes signal D it changes to red. As the last coach passes signal D, signal C changes to single yellow.

Here is the critical question - the way that you have configured the signals, then at this instant signal B should change to double yellow and signal A to green. BUT, signal B can't change to double yellow because train 2 is still in the BC section.

I know it's hypothetical and you'll probably say that you will never have trains queueing up like this. I don't think it can even be solved by loco detection when it comes along.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray, 

I have three houses in a row, each has to have gas, water and electric supplied to them, please supply each house with all the services required but, at no point must the services cross over each other. Loco Detection won't solve that either!

Joking aside...

I am aware of what you have so well described, don't take that the wrong way, but at present my mind is saying get the signals working in order, learn the programming and forgetting the trains. Forgetting the trains, how dare I !!!!!

Setting 4 @ 4 aspect signals was good and bad. Good it got the mind round the programming of the signals in the right order and Bad because it wouldn't work.

I have since removed the Red, but left the sequence of lights for all other signal colours and run a train round at 30mph, slow enough to watch and keep up with the changes.

A - train passes = Green to Red

B - train passed = Green to Red

C - train passes = Green to Red

B/C - train and carriages pass B --- Signal A - Red to Yellow

At this stage if I have sequence programmed, D = Yellow/Yellow and C changes to Green

So it can't work with back signal programming manually unless a layout is large enough to clear at least 5-6 blocks. Any layout going round and round will at some stage come back on itself down the line

The question then is how Loco Detection deals with the same scenario.

It will change signals red as each train passes - Good.

But, when you get a clear, all train and carriages in a block, to make a single yellow back down the line, and a double yellow, and a green before these, you can, as is my example, be changing a red signal to a double yellow and or green when it should still be Red!!!

Unless we have the all powerful IF, THEN, ELSE commands in Loco Detection I see the same problem.

IF (train and/or carriages in section x)

THEN signal Red

ELSE Y, YY or G

The red signal having priority over the others.

I am now left wondering... how much I can do with signalling without Loco Detection. 

PJ

[RDS]

I have just had an enjoyable few minutes reading today's posts on this thread.  

I have concluded, I am glad I don't have any signals!

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi RDS

I dont' know what you mean   ;o)

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Re-reading HRMS message, I am assuming the following.

We can program signals now in RM, in backwards order of the train travelling as R / Y / YY / G

Once we have loco detection and a train passes the sensor near a set signal, I assume it will over ride what is set in the signals and set the signal ajacent to the sensor to Red.  Once the last carriage of that train passes over the sensor it will trigger the instructions to set the previous signal to Y, the one before that to YY and the one before that to G. But if another train enters a previous zone/block I assume the same priority will apply.

My question therefore is, do we need to program our signals now or will it be done through Loco Detection when available?

This raises another related question, do we program points through the signals now or with Loco Detection?

Thank you in advance for your help

PJ