Loco Detection availability - Let's start a sweep

[RDS]

...  go there or not on their big Oz trip, the place really does have magic about it, ...

Been there at Sunset, amazing!

Well worth the 1,000 mile drive to get there.

[PJ_model_trains]

Well stone the crows!

Good grief I think I would prefer the reef.

Joking aside.

..

 

I know quite a few families that have gone to Australia, including a cousin, I also know some who came back and one who died after getting skin cancer. I cannot fly, not because I don't have wings, but because I cannot cope with the pain in my hips and back due to turbulence and narrow seats in planes. But the one reason above them that would not get me to Australia is I couldn't stand the heat.

 

I am sure it is a beautiful country but for me.....

 

And did those feet in ancient time walk upon England's mountains green?.....

Bring me by bow of burning gold!

Bring me my arrows of desire!

Bring me my spear!

O clouds, unfold!

Bring me my chariot of fire!

I will not cease from mental fight,

nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,

till we have built Jerusalem

in England's green and pleasant land.

[96RAF]

I didn't know you were in the W.I.  PJ. ;-}

[PJ_model_trains]

England's green and pleasant land...

 

our weather has a lot to answer for but it does make the grass greener (on this side)  ;o)

 

[Fishmanoz]

The grass will certainly be greener on the LD side.

[PJ_model_trains]

Ready and waiting.....   ;o)

[PJ_model_trains]

Having said that Fishy, when ever someone says 'the grass is greener on the other side'

I always refer to the fact it 'always appears greener' on the other side.

[St1ngr4y]

I wonder how much effort would be needed by the developers to give us a way of trying out LD before the actual hardware becomes available. Consider what happens when a train passes over a sensor. I believe it would cause a packet of data to be passed back to RM and this packet would contain two items - the address of the sensor and the address of the loco (or carriage) which has just passed. RM would then execute some subroutine with these two items as parameters.

Suppose they were to introduce a new command which could be put into a program and we could put into this command these two bits of data. We could insert a few sensor icons onto our track diagram and configure them as we wish. Then we could create a program which would set a few points, signals, and start a train going, then as the last line in the program, at an appropriate time after the train has started, we could insert this new command which would simulate the train passing over the sensor. To implement this command, all RM needs to do is call the same subroutine which will be used with a real sensor, using the parameters from this command.

Now there's a challenge :-)

 

Ray

[96RAF]

Ray

In my view that should all be possible now as when placing a sensor on the plan it will even at this stage no doubt have either/both a default parameter or a definable parameter. Those virtual default/selectable parameters regardless of any actual physical hardware state to alter them should already work to some extent in a program.

 

I'm not deep enough in the weeds of LD yet to be able think about trying this out, but others may have better vision via Pro-Pack and psuedo beta-testing to date with signalling and LD.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi RAF,

Yes, it is already possible to place sensor icons on your track layout, and even set one or two of their configuration parameters. However, you would need the hardware to provide the trigger for one of these. All I am suggesting is a program command to provide the trigger so that we can see how the configurable commands in the sensor icon will react.

Ray

[96RAF]

Lets hope that you get some suitable feedback Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi guys

 

I read the messages on the last page and clicked to reply... Ray you have said it all.  ;o)

 

The LD commands are there yes, the response to them is what we add when LD is available, with controller, so at this stage we cannot see them yet.

 

Interesting thought though Ray, I am certainly up for it and I believe it is possible, the question is whether HRMS would do it. I already have all the LD sensor icons in place on my layout.

 

All it needs (if I am seeing this correctly) is for RM to have a command line with two entries that work with the next line of instructions.

 

Example. If I take my Lakeside station. I can set up in the LD icon.

- Device 1 (I take it this is controller 1?) so I set 1

- Input Port say 3

- Linked to signal 0115 the one for leaving the station.

 

We can add the left hand column command in the LD command box, say 'On signal green' but not the right hand.

 

So if there was a command line of two entries saying for example...

- Train ID say  022  --- Sensor ID 0115 >>> for train 022 passing over sensor 0115

- on signal green ---- speed 20 mph >>> this would set train 022 to set off to 20mph if signal is green.

 

So the signal is changed to green in our program prior to the above two lines in the program.

 

The only issue I see at present with the temporary suggestion is the port number. With LD it will be the port for LD controller and will be nothing to do with RM at that stage. (there are a lot less port choices in the drop down menu for LD). So if HRMS were to program the above mentioned items the LD port number used would have to be made to work with RM Pro and be those not used for anything else, suggestion between 801 - 999

 

Interesting topic though, it will be interesting also to see if HRMS feel it is feasible or if they have time to do it. Their thoughts on this will no doubt be based also on when they think LD will be available to the public and whether they think it could cause other issues or may interfere with their other work on the software at this time.  My thoughts, note they are only my thoughts, are that HRMS built in the initial LD commands to give us a taste and get us talking, it certainly worked. But, I do not think they would have done so if LD, dare I say, was not coming soon. Definition of soon in this case being sometime this year.

 

That would put our sweep stake spot on for sometime this year  ;o)

 

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

Great suggestion Ray, bring it on.

 

PJ, I'm having trouble getting my head around the system operation from what you've said, so I'm going to put my thoughts on it and I'm interested in feedback from all.

 

For a start, the LD system consists of controllers (max 2), detectors (48 per controller?) and tags (forget how many allowed to be active in the system but at least 100).

 

To set the system up:

 

-  Controllers are connected via USB and their USB port number is configured in RM.  I'm also going to assume that controller 1 will have detector output port numbers 1-48 and controller 2 numbers 49-96 (assuming I have the number of detectors per controller correct)

 

-  Detectors are placed on your Trackplan and will need to be programmed with a detector number to correspond to the controller output port to which you connect them ie. a number between 1 and 96 and presumably the controller number must be specified too.  Now to state the not so obvious to some - they will have no idea where they are on the Trackplan, only you will know that, and they will have no idea if they are adjacent to a point or a signal or any other accessory, although you will be able to set them up such that they take account of and set the states of particular signals and points which will likely be adjacent to them but don't have to be.

 

-  ID Tags - these will be connected to the underside of locos and configured to that loco in the Loco Setup window ( question now being asked by PJ - what about those on tenders and last carriages?  Answer - I have no idea)

 

So that's your LD system all set up and waiting to be used, nothing more and nothing less.  Have I got it right?

 

What does it do?  Detectors read the IDs of tags passing over them and send this information to RM.  That's all I believe it does.  Am I right?  See next.

 

What does RM do?  It interprets the ID tag as belonging to a particular loco and it notes the locos speed and direction from the throttle for that loco. Now there is an alternative possible method for determining speed and direction here - the detector reads the speed and direction of the tag passing over it.  I'm not sure which and it doesn't matter, all we need to know is that the system knows these 2 parameters when a detection is made.

 

Is that all RM does?  I believe in the first instance yes.  Am I right?  But first read on before answering.

 

What do you do?  You program configuration information into each detector. You can make things happen to all locos passing over, to only a group of locos, or to only individual locos.  You can make the locos stop or change speed or continue on.  You can also make these actions conditional on the state of particular signals (and the direction a point is set - can't remember just now?).  And you can also have the detections set the state of signals and the direction of points.  And finally, you can cause the detections to run programs you have written.  All these things in combination have the power to completely change what is happening on your entire layout, based on just one detection.  If you can do that with one detection, imagine what you can do with all of them.

 

But have I got it right?  Let me know.

 

Finally, how would Ray's suggestion work.  All that would be needed would be the facility to specify that a particular tag has been detected at a particular detector.  And maybe even be able to write that instruction into a program, not just do it directly on screen?  And the point of being able to?  Now you can test that all of the setup programming you have written into that detector will work, and how it will work.

 

That's LD in a fishy nutshell.  Have I got it right, is it coming through loud and clear, or is it all muffled by Graskie's hat (none of his have corks)?

[Fishmanoz]

PS.  From checking PJ's list - no, you can't make what happens on an LD detection's occurrence dependent on which way a point is set, only on the state of a signal.

 

The question might be - HRMS, why can't you?

 

And the answer might be - because you can link signal and point state already, so use this feature to effectively have things conditional on point direction.  But that won't work all of the time, only some of the time, and particularly not if you don't have signals (unthinkable PJ mumbles under his breath on reading this).

[RDS]

... All I am suggesting is a program command to provide the trigger ...

That sounds like a great idea for our Desirable Features thread, Ray.

[St1ngr4y]

@Fishmanoz

You seem to have covered just about everything we know at this stage, Fishy

 

@PJ

I'm not sure what you meant by this PJ :-

"The LD commands are there yes, the response to them is what we add when LD is available, with controller, so at this stage we cannot see them yet."

When LD comes along, I believe it will only be the hardware i.e. the controller, the tags, and the sensors. They may change RM slightly to complete the items which you will be able to configure into each sensor icon.

 

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

Thanks Ray and I'm taking it you think I have it pretty right?  Graskie can breath a sigh of relief and put his best bowler back in the cupboard, or wear it without risk while counting and weighing gold bars?

[96RAF]

I think you are spot on with your LD system description Fishy at least according to my understanding of what we know to date.

 

The bit you pointed out about ...

"Now to state the not so obvious to some - they will have no idea where they are on the Trackplan, only you will know that,"

...also applies to points and signals.

 

You don't need a structured trackplan (that is purely to look good and so your head can follow the plot better).

You could just list all your points (and signals) in a disconnected line across or down the screen, configure them and they would still work. RM would be no wiser either. After all if you took all the straight lines off the plan it would look a mess and still work.

[PJ_model_trains]

@Fishmanoz

You seem to have covered just about everything we know at this stage, Fishy

 

@PJ

I'm not sure what you meant by this PJ :-

"The LD commands are there yes, the response to them is what we add when LD is available, with controller, so at this stage we cannot see them yet."

When LD comes along, I believe it will only be the hardware i.e. the controller, the tags, and the sensors. They may change RM slightly to complete the items which you will be able to configure into each sensor icon.

 

Ray

 

Sorry Ray

 

When my eyes get tired I should pack in, I have double vision due to 3 strokes in last 7 years, although I have corrective lenses with prisms I still get tired on computers and reading. But don't pack in and rest them as I should... so my wife always tells me. Sadly she is right!

 

Anyway to explain what the statement meant...

 

Firstly LD

 

The LD commands are there... means the commands are set in the LD icons ACTION box and we can see them when we add the LD icon and open and view them.

 

The response to them is what we add when LD is available... eg. ACTIONS we can say (LH box) 'On signal green' but we cannot add the response in the right hand box until LD is available. So we cannot see them.

 

But if HRMS did program RM to allow for us to simulate LD it would need to allow data in both columns, the sensor ID and the train, tender of carriage ID.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

@Fishy

 

I agree with what you have put, that may surprise you!

 

What I was explaining, badly looking back, was LD commands being used in RM to simulate what LD will do until LD is available.

 

I'll add comments for other items separately.

 

[PJ_model_trains]

For a start, the LD system consists of controllers (max 2), detectors (48 per controller?) and tags (forget how many allowed to be active in the system but at least 100).

 

To set the system up:

 

-  Controllers are connected via USB and their USB port number is configured in RM.  I'm also going to assume that controller 1 will have detector output port numbers 1-48 and controller 2 numbers 49-96 (assuming I have the number of detectors per controller correct)

 

-  Detectors are placed on your Trackplan and will need to be programmed with a detector number to correspond to the controller output port to which you connect them ie. a number between 1 and 96 and presumably the controller number must be specified too.  Now to state the not so obvious to some - they will have no idea where they are on the Trackplan, only you will know that, and they will have no idea if they are adjacent to a point or a signal or any other accessory, although you will be able to set them up such that they take account of and set the states of particular signals and points which will likely be adjacent to them but don't have to be.

 

Agreed

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

I thought that was probably what you meant, which is what I was getting at when I said:

"They may change RM slightly to complete the items which you will be able to configure into each sensor icon."

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

-  ID Tags - these will be connected to the underside of locos and configured to that loco in the Loco Setup window ( question now being asked by PJ - what about those on tenders and last carriages?  Answer - I have no idea)

 

ID Tags will be fit by us to the underside of trains, tenders and last carriages, wagons or guards vans as we wish.

 

For a 0-4-0, 0-6-0 or other small train we will probably only add one tag and may be towards the centre, no doubt an area where it is easy to fit.  For CoN, DoG or any larger train with tender we will probably fit a tag near the front of the train (best location) and one near the rear of the tender (best location). Same with the  of a carriage, wagon or guards van, a tag on the underside in the best location but near the back of it.

 

As RAF says the system does not know where anything is, they could be any where on the layout. The system depends on numbers, sensor number x, train tag #1, tender tag #2, last carriage tag #3. 

 

This is what I mean by LD and RM working together. Some where we will have programmed (probably RM but we don't know yet) Train A has train tag #1. train A tender has tag #2, train A last carriage has tag #3

 

So when 'ANY TRAIN' goes over a sensor, RM knows via LD that it was sensor number ###. RM knows by the code sent back through LD that it was train Tag #1 which RM relates to say this is the CoN train. Now we know although the system is punching numbers that our CoN train has gone over a sensor and the sensor was number ###.

 

RM works with the data from LD and processes it based on what we have programmed. Let us say we have said in RM in the LD tag, when CoN goes over sensor ### on signal Red > 'Linked signal' we set for this sensor - RED > Stop (the train)

 

It could have also send back... sensor ###, train tag 3 (last carriage, wagon or guards van) via LD to RM.

 

RM processes these two codes from LD, (eg Working together), and looks for commands in our LD icon or program for further instructions, If 'linked signal' is RED then set signal (1 back) Yellow, If linked signal RED then set signal (2 back) Yellow Yellow, if linked signal RED then set signal (3 back) to Green

 

[the above is based on 4 aspect signals; minus the YY for 3 aspect signals; just red and green for 2 aspect signals]

 

I hope I am explaining this sufficiently but from the point of view of the train, tender or last carriage they are just numbers from tags read by sensors eg 1, 2, 3. So we give an instruction for when train passes over sensor and tag 1 is read, tag 2 may be fit to the train but no instructon given for this if the train has carriages, and finally we add instructions for the last carriage to tag 3.

 

I think we are agreeing with so many things although it is easy for things to be put differently or even read another way. I think this is also understandable as we are discussing what we see only in part, we are also discussing two different systems, RM & LD butthey will be 'working together' LD providing data, RM processing it.  (As I see it, right or wrong?)

 

Fishy you say... 'configured to that loco in the Loco Setup window'. May I ask where this refers to? 

[Fishmanoz]

 

The bit you pointed out about ...

"Now to state the not so obvious to some - they will have no idea where they are on the Trackplan, only you will know that,"

...also applies to points and signals.

 

 

Agreed 100% RAF and a good point to make.  I had assumed this from previous discussion on here going back some time.  You have made it obvious for more recent forum users who haven't had the benefit of that previous discussion.  I also thought it important to say in case some were thinking that somehow LD was going to change this truth, and I don't think it is.

 

An interesting point arises from this - what is the meaning of direction at a sensor if you don't know where the sensor is?  My answer is that while RM may not know, I know in my head and you in yours.

[Fishmanoz]

Wasn't certain you agreed entirely PJ, glad you do.  Your slightly mixed up description of LD simulation instructions didn't help in that regard, and now you have explained that too.