Loco Detection availability - Let's start a sweep

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi PJ,

I thought that was probably what you meant, which is what I was getting at when I said:

"They may change RM slightly to complete the items which you will be able to configure into each sensor icon."

Ray

 

Hi Ray

 

Thanks for your reply, badly worded last night I feel. 

 

As just said in a reply to Fishy, we are looking at two systems, which have to 'work together' but, we are seeing in part now and trying to put pieces together we can't see.

 

That is clear with the LD icon set up, we can say, referring to the linked signal... 'on signal green' or red or other but we cannot see the options HRMS have built in. We can assume them and some will be obvious but we are assuming.

 

Another unclear area is how the syste knows which train has passed over a sensor. The system know it was sensor number (x), it doesn't know what train but it does know it was tag (YYY). So train YYY has gone oversensor x, but RM must have the train tag linked to the train ID at some point. Then it comes clearer, train YYY which is say the CoN, passed over sensor (x)  make sound. The system knows what sound we are requesting the tag comfirms which train, and the sound for that train is sounded.

 

So confirming Fishy's comments of train, tender or carriage, these are just tags with numbers, bar code numbers or what ever to the system they are numbers. TAG1 is what ever train we set, TAG2 the tender and TAG 3 the last carriage, wagon or guards van. The system know what they are by the tags but there has to be, as you say, a little more in RM for them to work together.

 

Can you here that sound Ray? Of one (maybe more) crying in the wilderness... come on Hornby lets be having LD and put us out of our misery.   ;o)

[Fishmanoz]

My point was there is already provision to include tag numbers in your loco setup screen, making that quite unambiguous for locos.  There is currently no such provision for other than locos ....... maybe a desirable feature?

 

It also means that for the LD simulation instructions to work, we will have to know the format for a tag ID and be able to enter dummy ones into our loco setups.  Then simulation instructions to say those tags have been detected will be fully meaningful.

[PJ_model_trains]

Wasn't certain you agreed entirely PJ, glad you do.  Your slightly mixed up description of LD simulation instructions didn't help in that regard, and now you have explained that too.

 

Hi Fishy

 

I do think that the mix up became more advanced when we were discussing HRMS altering RM to simulate LD. And talking about adding the sensor code and train ID's in the LD Icon, in RM, to allow us to program the simulation.  

 

The wires were starting to get crossed, trying to explain how to do LD items in RM and being misunderstood. Also misunderstood was my statement of LD and RM working together, of course they will.

 

I fround when you added  'configured to that loco in the Loco Setup window' I am sure you didn't mean Loco Setup window as in 'set up locomotives'  loco set up window.  It is easy for misunderstandings to occur for anyone with so many parts of two systems talking along similar tracks.

 

O dear I have now mentioned tracks!!!   ;o)

[96RAF]

 My answer is that while RM may not know, I know in my head and you in yours.

I kind of think that if RM-LD is using barcodes or similar for transmitting ID and other stuff, then they tend to be undirectional - i.e. you can scan them anywhichway and the result is the same, so as you say RM won't have a clue on direction and as the current overall 'where am I' logic is 'anywhere - just a trigger event' trying to sequentially match A with B with C in directional order may be a tad difficult.

The operator will know exactly what is where, when and next but RM won't have a clue except 'Whoosh - I know what that was and I must do something about it per instructions'

Good luck sorting that out guys. I would have liked to have seen something a bit more intelligent from LD that could put a tracking line on a route showing exactly where an identified (on screen e.g. Mallard) object was on the trackplan and where it was going, at what speed, even where it was next due to stop, start, route, etc. Maybe a step too far.

[PJ_model_trains]

What does it do?  Detectors read the IDs of tags passing over them and send this information to RM.  That's all I believe it does.  Am I right?  See next.

 

What does RM do?  It interprets the ID tag as belonging to a particular loco and it notes the locos speed and direction from the throttle for that loco. Now there is an alternative possible method for determining speed and direction here - the detector reads the speed and direction of the tag passing over it.  I'm not sure which and it doesn't matter, all we need to know is that the system knows these 2 parameters when a detection is made.

 

Is that all RM does?  I believe in the first instance yes.  Am I right?  But first read on before answering.

 

Yes Fishy

 

When a train goes over a sensor the tag on the train is read, if I am correct it send back just two items of information. The sensor ID so that it relates to that sensor and the ID on the tag it read.

 

These two items of information are sent through LD to RM. Nothing more. Then RM processes the data kowing only two things a sensor number and a tag number. As RAF said earlier, it doesn't know where the sensor is that doesn't matter and it doesn't know what the tag is other than its number. 

 

Somewhere the Tag number has to be program/linked to 1 - a train, 2 - a tender or 3 - a last carriage, wagon OR guards van.  RM will then know which of the three (numbers) passed over the sensor. Then subject to the signal linked to the sensor a pre programmed instruction will be carried out. Or a set of pre-programmed instructions will be carried out if they are linked at any point.

 

The question at this moment seems to me, how we program link, the ID tags in RM to the three options above. At present, as far as I can see, we don't know yet.

 

Unless someone has seen something to confirm this?

 

I have no idea about speeds at this stage, but am following the discussion closely, could it also calculate a speed knowing when it passed a previous sensor?

[96RAF]

 

 ...could it also calculate a speed knowing when it passed a previous sensor?

As it doesn't know spacially where any sensor or tag is relative to any other sensor or tag then it can't possibly calculate speed. All it possibly can know is tag 1 passed sensor A, then tag 1 passed another sensor.

[RDS]

Are you all sure you are intending to put your LD comments on this thread?

 

(If in doubt, Read the Title of the thread and in particular the first post, 'Just a date required')

 

So far, it has taken 34 pages to produce 22 guesses.

Someone has to wade through this lot to find the dates to produce our table of guesses!

[Fishmanoz]

Ah Houston, we still have a problem ....... I think .....

 

Fishy you say... 'configured to that loco in the Loco Setup window'. May I ask where this refers to? 

 

PJ, look at either page 34 of the manual or open the loco setup window for any of your locos.  The third bottom area contains a space to enter Detection ID.  This is for entering the tag number you attach to the loco.  RM doesn't have to do any interpretation of what tag number relates to what, here you will enter it quite unambiguously, at least for locos.

 

Now do you see why I'm saying locos are different to non-locos such as tenders and last carriages?

[St1ngr4y]

 My answer is that while RM may not know, I know in my head and you in yours.

I kind of think that if RM-LD is using barcodes or similar for transmitting ID and other stuff, then they tend to be undirectional - i.e. you can scan them anywhichway and the result is the same, so as you say RM won't have a clue on direction and as the current overall 'where am I' logic is 'anywhere - just a trigger event' trying to sequentially match A with B with C in directional order may be a tad difficult.

The operator will know exactly what is where, when and next but RM won't have a clue except 'Whoosh - I know what that was and I must do something about it per instructions'

Good luck sorting that out guys. I would have liked to have seen something a bit more intelligent from LD that could put a tracking line on a route showing exactly where an identified (on screen e.g. Mallard) object was on the trackplan and where it was going, at what speed, even where it was next due to stop, start, route, etc. Maybe a step too far.

But if RM can link a LD Tag to a Loco Id, then RM will know the speed and direction (forward or reverse) of the Tag which has just passed over the sensor. All the sensor has to do is read the Tag Id as it passes, then send a data packet to the pc containing the sensor number and the Tag Id. It's up to RM, using the instructions supplied by the user, to take action(s) using that data.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

What do you do?  You program configuration information into each detector. You can make things happen to all locos passing over, to only a group of locos, or to only individual locos.  You can make the locos stop or change speed or continue on.  You can also make these actions conditional on the state of particular signals (and the direction a point is set - can't remember just now?).  And you can also have the detections set the state of signals and the direction of points.  And finally, you can cause the detections to run programs you have written.  All these things in combination have the power to completely change what is happening on your entire layout, based on just one detection.  If you can do that with one detection, imagine what you can do with all of them.

 

But have I got it right?  Let me know.

 

All sounds to me as I understand it Fishy.

 

Just to confirm some items mentioned yesterday which again talking RM programming LD items may have been mis interpreted.

 

In the Loco Detection set up Icon in RM

1 - set device (I take it this is set controller 1 or 2)

2 - Input ports 1 - 48 are proposed for LD.  As this is a separate system using these low numbers will not conflict in RM. But if we similate LD in RM we could not use these port numbers.

What I was saying yesterday was, if HRMS decided to alter the software for RM to similate the actions of LD until LD is available, they would have to be ports we don't already use so I suggested maybe between 801 - 995.  My highest used port number in RM  is 275, hence the port numbers suggested as we will all have already used lower port numbers in our set up. I am aware Ray has used numbers as high if not higher then I have.

3 - is linked signal (nearest signal to sensor)

 

[Fishmanoz]

The literature has already said that speed and direction will be known on a detection, and I'm assuming this literature has originated from what Hornby has told them.  My source is the Hornby RM article in the DCC supplement of the May 2014 issue of the Hornby Magazine.

 

Now I agree it is unlikely that reading a tag will include them knowing speed and direction by which way the tag was read and how fast it was seen to go over the sensor, although that isn't impossible.  What I think will happen is that, having detected a tag number, and knowing from the loco setup which loco the tag is attached to, it csn then read the loco throttle to get the information.

 

But which of these happens is irrelevant.  The important thing is that we are told that speed and direction will be known when a detection is made.

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, on being able to use port numbers: they are only port numbers on the LD controller.  For the purposes of using them in RM, they are just sensor ID numbers.  It's the same as point or signal numbers.  Points and signals are also connected to ports on decoders but this is separate setup info.  We will have ID numbers for points, signals and detectors and we'll use that information without worrying about ports.

[PJ_model_trains]

Finally, how would Ray's suggestion work.  All that would be needed would be the facility to specify that a particular tag has been detected at a particular detector.  And maybe even be able to write that instruction into a program, not just do it directly on screen?  And the point of being able to?  Now you can test that all of the setup programming you have written into that detector will work, and how it will work.

 

Ray's idea is good, no doubt about it but, will HRMS do it?

 

They will no doubt consider whether it is feasible, whether it would cause problems with what they are currently working on. A problem may also be that do do this they would not be fixing other issues or adding other signals or decoders they have said they hoped to be working on.

 

They would probably also consider how long it is before they think LD will be launched and if they get this far, they would no doubt consider whether it would increase sales by the launch or wether it could cause problems for them.

 

Time will tell.

[PJ_model_trains]

My point was there is already provision to include tag numbers in your loco setup screen, making that quite unambiguous for locos.  There is currently no such provision for other than locos ....... maybe a desirable feature?

 

Hi Fishy

Can you confirm where this is please?

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

On linking sensors to signals: I don't believe any such linking will exist.  That doesn't mean that you won't be able to read the state of a signal when a detection is made, clearly you can from the programming instructions available.  But it won't be because there is a link as such between the two, you will have to program in the sensor configuration information which signal to read, and it could be a signal anywhere on the layout.

 

I thought I'd already said this in my first big post on LD in a fishy nutshell, and I thought you'd agreed PJ.  Shows how we interpret words differently doesn't it.

[Fishmanoz]

My point was there is already provision to include tag numbers in your loco setup screen, making that quite unambiguous for locos.  There is currently no such provision for other than locos ....... maybe a desirable feature?

 

Hi Fishy

Can you confirm where this is please?

PJ

 

PJ, our posts are crossing over right left and centre at the moment.  I've told this in the fourth post down on page 34.  It's in your loco setup windows third from the bottom or see page 34 of the manual.

[96RAF]

Time for a new thread starting with a summary??

[PJ_model_trains]

 My answer is that while RM may not know, I know in my head and you in yours.

I kind of think that if RM-LD is using barcodes or similar for transmitting ID and other stuff, then they tend to be undirectional - i.e. you can scan them anywhichway and the result is the same, so as you say RM won't have a clue on direction and as the current overall 'where am I' logic is 'anywhere - just a trigger event' trying to sequentially match A with B with C in directional order may be a tad difficult.

The operator will know exactly what is where, when and next but RM won't have a clue except 'Whoosh - I know what that was and I must do something about it per instructions'

Good luck sorting that out guys. I would have liked to have seen something a bit more intelligent from LD that could put a tracking line on a route showing exactly where an identified (on screen e.g. Mallard) object was on the trackplan and where it was going, at what speed, even where it was next due to stop, start, route, etc. Maybe a step too far.

 

Hi RAF

 

It is an interesting subject, direction of train.

 

Could it be the same as every other item, it is just an instruction another number?

 

eg. a sensor is a port number, a point motor or signal is a port number, a train has its own address again another number. Forward or reverse to us is as seen, on an oval track a train can go forward and be moving away from us or forward and moving towards us. It is as we see it but not the train.

 

Trains are already programmed in RM, to go forward or go in reverse. So which ever way a train faces, one way is forward and the other reverse that is all it knows and as it is on a track it can only do one or the other.

 

When the train goes over a sensor, which ever way the bar code or similar is read, to the train forward is the way in which the train has been programmed, front end first.

 

Is it not a form of algebra?  ((A+B) = y/3) * pi)  We are thinking as our minds are programmed, not the numbers or letters but real life items, forward and backwards. When we first learned algebra, we would initially relate to items we could picture or see instead of numbers or formulas. Once we grasped how it worked... Forward is forward and reverse is reverse and if we go in to CV's it is a number, if it goes the wrong way change the CV number.

[Fishmanoz]

Can I suggest we ask Adam to put the content from my LD in a fishy nutshell post into a sticky thread titled "Loco Detection: What Is It and How Does It Work?"

[PJ_model_trains]

 

 ...could it also calculate a speed knowing when it passed a previous sensor?

As it doesn't know spacially where any sensor or tag is relative to any other sensor or tag then it can't possibly calculate speed. All it possibly can know is tag 1 passed sensor A, then tag 1 passed another sensor.

 

Thanks RAF

 

I thought afterwards, it would need to now distance as well and it doesn't.

 

Pass  ;o)

[96RAF]

I'm better at Trigonometry.

[Fishmanoz]

That must be a Sine RAF?

[PJ_model_trains]

Ah Houston, we still have a problem ....... I think .....

 

Fishy you say... 'configured to that loco in the Loco Setup window'. May I ask where this refers to? 

 

PJ, look at either page 34 of the manual or open the loco setup window for any of your locos.  The third bottom area contains a space to enter Detection ID.  This is for entering the tag number you attach to the loco.  RM doesn't have to do any interpretation of what tag number relates to what, here you will enter it quite unambiguously, at least for locos.

 

Now do you see why I'm saying locos are different to non-locos such as tenders and last carriages?

 

Hi Fishy

 

Thanks for the info.  I must admit as this is seting up Loco settings and not Loco Detection in the manual I have not read this section for at least 15 months!  

 

Having now looked at it, I can see detection ID and type. Detection ID allowing the addresses set for the trains and type being goods, express etc. But not as you say for entering the tag number you attach to the loco. Unless I have missed something.

 

I think HRMS should include this in more details in the Loco Detection section although, I am sure they will include it in the LD Guide.

 

The question from me then is probably, the train's tag is read by the sensor, is this a bar code or similar of every possible train ID, possibly. Some how the system has to tie together the tag read with the train ID.

 

If that is the case, it could be, do we get a couple of sheets of these train tags? Why a couple, some are certain to get damaged, peel away, get scratched, etc. Fixed ID's, to match train ID's, if that is what they do would make it more rigid. Another area for discussion.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 My answer is that while RM may not know, I know in my head and you in yours.

I kind of think that if RM-LD is using barcodes or similar for transmitting ID and other stuff, then they tend to be undirectional - i.e. you can scan them anywhichway and the result is the same, so as you say RM won't have a clue on direction and as the current overall 'where am I' logic is 'anywhere - just a trigger event' trying to sequentially match A with B with C in directional order may be a tad difficult.

The operator will know exactly what is where, when and next but RM won't have a clue except 'Whoosh - I know what that was and I must do something about it per instructions'

Good luck sorting that out guys. I would have liked to have seen something a bit more intelligent from LD that could put a tracking line on a route showing exactly where an identified (on screen e.g. Mallard) object was on the trackplan and where it was going, at what speed, even where it was next due to stop, start, route, etc. Maybe a step too far.

But if RM can link a LD Tag to a Loco Id, then RM will know the speed and direction (forward or reverse) of the Tag which has just passed over the sensor. All the sensor has to do is read the Tag Id as it passes, then send a data packet to the pc containing the sensor number and the Tag Id. It's up to RM, using the instructions supplied by the user, to take action(s) using that data.

Ray

 

Hi Ray

 

That is very true.  If RM knows which train from the sensor and Tag, where the tag links to the train, RM already knows what speed that train is running. Again LD & RM working together!

 

PJ

[RDS]

Can I suggest we ask Adam to put the content from my LD in a fishy nutshell post into a sticky thread titled "Loco Detection: What Is It and How Does It Work?"

What a great idea!

(See my post of page 34 of this 'Sweep thread', 3rd one down)