choralc Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 DCC Installation on a R.333 0-4-0T GWR Tank Loco '101' fitted with a different motor than the current Class 101 derivations. Perhaps it is the Class 1 "Silver Motor" mentioned in the Locomotive Operation and Maintenance sheet (R333 14121979) that came with the Loco. I will try to picture the motor in your mind by starting from the left front of the motor. I can see that one pickup (which I'll call A) rests against a solder tag (B) on the bottom left of the motor face. The pickup © on the other side rests against a spring (D) mounted on the bottom right of the motor face. The spring (D) makes contact with a plate (E) which is in the middle of the right hand face which I am assuming is connected to a brush (?) making contact with the armature. A capacitor appears to be soldered to this plate (E) and also with another solder tag (F) on the top right of the motor face. A white wire connects the capacitor to the bottom left solder tag (B). A spring (G) mounted at the top left of the motor face connects to a plate (H) centred on the left edge of the motor face which I'm assuming contacts the brush on this side of the armature. My questions are these. When fitting the decoder to this motor should I connect: 1. the black wire to either the pickup (A) or solder tag (B)? 2. the red wire to the solder tag (F)? 3. the orange wire to the spring (B) or plate (H)? 4. the grey wire to the spring (G) or plate (H)? 5. Should I discard the capacitor? I'd really like to chip this loco but cannot find anything on the internet that resembles installation with this motor. Any help greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Rather hard to follow what you've said cc. have you checked the Bromsgrove models site? Lots of decoder fitting instructions there. In principle, what you have to do is: - unsolder the connecting wires from the pickups to the motor. - discard the capacitor and any other suppression components. - make sure both brush connections are isolated from chassis - connect decoder red and black to the pickups and orange and grey to the brushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Picture would be a great help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The important bit is to check using a meter or battery and bulb tester that the chassis is not common to either a motor connection or a rail pickup. If this is so then you need to isolate the two so your decoder wires direct to the motor termainals and the rail pickups and does not pass through the chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Chassis common to a pickup is ok, and is always the case for X04 motors as an example. It is motor connection not isolated from chassis which will destroy a decoder instantly. Put another way, if decoder input is connected to decoder output, either wire, the decoder produces smoke as a one off event and refuses to work thereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Picture would be a great help. /media/tinymce_upload/IMG_9983.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Picture would be a great help. /media/tinymce_upload/R333_2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 /media/tinymce_upload/R333_3.jpgPicture would be a great help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 pull A and C away from B and D respectively ,check with an ohm meter and check the circuit A to B and C and D if you have achieved isolation then you will have no readings between A to B ,C ,D . If you have reading then you have not isolated the motor from the chassis and you will need to isolate this further , looking at your pictures i think this should be ok , so connect red wire to A black to C orange to B grey to F snip off the capacitor your decoder has rf suppression built in check along the way with your ohm meter that you have no readings from A or C to B and F magfan, thanks. I will have to get a meter but in the interim (I'm waiting on new decoders to arrive as we have no model rail shop in the area) I want to confirm that I will have to keep the pick up A isolated from B and C isolated from D? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 B must be isolated from A and C. And D must be isolated from A and C. Or put just in words, there must be no connection at all between the pickups (A and C) and the motor (B and D), directly or via the chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Just checking fishmanoz :) I will use heat shrink over all the soldered wire connections I'll make. I just checked your profile and saw that you are new to railway modelling! Well okay three years now. Your name has come up quite a lot in the forum posts I have read with much helpful advice. So when the new order of decoders comes I will be sure to set the meter to ohms to check that there is no measure between the points you mentioned. Thank you to all who replied. As I said this motor looks different to the ones on the Hornby and Bromgrove sites and others talking about Hornby 0-4-0 motors (or in a language I could understand having no electrical background whatsoever). If there are clear pictures I should be able to replicate. Now that I have a meter I may even tackle the Airfix, Bachmann, Lima and Mainline locos - so long as there are clear pictures and simple step instructions :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yes use heatshrink, or there is paint-on insulation too. Or just make sure you stow the wiring with no possibility of the joints touching if you are careful. For or all conversions, the advice is the same. First disconnect motor connections from pickups, throw away suppression capacitors etc and make sure the motor connections are isolated from chassis - which is easier said than done for split chassis and some Ringfield motor designs. Double-check isolation with an ohmmeter. Then it's just pickups to red and black (one of these may be connected to chassis with no problem as long as the motor is isolated), motor connections to orange and grey and you are up and running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 Yes use heatshrink, or there is paint-on insulation too. Or just make sure you stow the wiring with no possibility of the joints touching if you are careful. For or all conversions, the advice is the same. First disconnect motor connections from pickups, throw away suppression capacitors etc and make sure the motor connections are isolated from chassis - which is easier said than done for split chassis and some Ringfield motor designs. Double-check isolation with an ohmmeter. Then it's just pickups to red and black (one of these may be connected to chassis with no problem as long as the motor is isolated), motor connections to orange and grey and you are up and running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 Yes use heatshrink, or there is paint-on insulation too. Or just make sure you stow the wiring with no possibility of the joints touching if you are careful. For or all conversions, the advice is the same. First disconnect motor connections from pickups, throw away suppression capacitors etc and make sure the motor connections are isolated from chassis - which is easier said than done for split chassis and some Ringfield motor designs. Double-check isolation with an ohmmeter. Then it's just pickups to red and black (one of these may be connected to chassis with no problem as long as the motor is isolated), motor connections to orange and grey and you are up and running. Okay, I found a TCS decoder which was a little big for the 0-4-0 body so I'm putting that one into a loco that has a DCC Concepts S-series which is smaller. The S Series has been wired as per instructions with the red wire going to pickup A which has heat shrink over the join and the red wire is on pickup C also with heat shrink to isolate them from ay accidental contact with the motor. The orange wire is on solder tag B and the grey is on solder tag F. The decoder has not been fitted into the wiring harness yet and because the pickups have heat-shrink on I'm putting the probes on the wheels: 1. Pickup A to pickup C (left-side wheel to right-side wheel) - no reading 2. Pickup A to solder tag B - no reading 3. Pickup A to solder tag F - no reading 4. - 6.same tests using pickup C - nothing Putting decoder into socket: Tests 1. - 3. reading. Tests 4. - 6. reading Is this right? I won't put this on the program track until I get confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 Now where are all the helpful people when you want them? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 dont know i have not done a test afterwards, when you say programme track is it a reduced current track? you could be testing through the bridge rectifier Don't know about testing through the bridge rectifier but the Program track is connected the output on the Elite other than Track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Yes use heatshrink, or there is paint-on insulation too. Or just make sure you stow the wiring with no possibility of the joints touching if you are careful. For or all conversions, the advice is the same. First disconnect motor connections from pickups, throw away suppression capacitors etc and make sure the motor connections are isolated from chassis - which is easier said than done for split chassis and some Ringfield motor designs. Double-check isolation with an ohmmeter. Then it's just pickups to red and black (one of these may be connected to chassis with no problem as long as the motor is isolated), motor connections to orange and grey and you are up and running. Okay, I found a TCS decoder which was a little big for the 0-4-0 body so I'm putting that one into a loco that has a DCC Concepts S-series which is smaller. The S Series has been wired as per instructions with the red wire going to pickup A which has heat shrink over the join and the red wire is on pickup C also with heat shrink to isolate them from ay accidental contact with the motor. The orange wire is on solder tag B and the grey is on solder tag F. The decoder has not been fitted into the wiring harness yet and because the pickups have heat-shrink on I'm putting the probes on the wheels: 1. Pickup A to pickup C (left-side wheel to right-side wheel) - no reading 2. Pickup A to solder tag B - no reading 3. Pickup A to solder tag F - no reading 4. - 6.same tests using pickup C - nothing Putting decoder into socket: Tests 1. - 3. reading. Tests 4. - 6. reading Is this right? I won't put this on the program track until I get confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The son of Triangman Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 The picukp feeds A and C should not be in contact with the motor contacts, fit your red and black wires to them and then insulate them. Don't snip the capacitor off as it is easy enough to unsolder and can be put in the spares box for reuse.This is the newer motor in a caley pug but same principals apply, seperate feed supply from motor control. You have the earlier motor so will need a different place to site the decoder. Also decoders are static sensotove devices so the use of an anti-static wrist strap is a good idea to protect the electronics on the decoder board./media/tinymce_upload/DSCN0967_zps056455f8.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 SoT the older motor is actually a little thinner and the decoder is in the same place. I think I have actually written a conclusion to a similar posting of this item where I changed some wires around and added a thin bit of insulation under the motor where it may have been touching the metal motor frame. I have kept your pic as a guide to model from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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