PlanesTV

Sam's Warley report including crashing a Dwight D Eisenhower is here 13 mins in https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DaRrdsol_6oQ&ved=2ahUKEwjYlZbHtfOCAxVNUUEAHaA8BgsQwqsBegQIDBAG&usg=AOvVaw1fDE9024_JGRfgrwSNb4tJ

Hornby Live Steam Club attracted some publicity attention at the weekend's Warley show to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the product launch. We were honoured to have the system inventor Richard Hallam with us to receive an award shared jointly with Hornby Marketing Department. Do you recognise the photographer on the left? Sam from YouTube Sam's Trains stayed to 'have-a-go' so it will be interesting to see what he thinks of Hornby Live Steam in his Warley report

Gowest knows his stuff Ulrich and you sound like you have a good technical ability too. For those of us with lesser abilities the OO Live Steam Club also hold parts and will repair locos for a fee. The club website has several videos to help with DIY repairs. The club is free to join.

It will be a drop in voltage. Note that when you flick the regulator handle the voltage reading on the controller momentarily drops to zero. That's how the loco gets the command to advance (or close) the steam regulator. To find out if it's the track or the loco dropping voltage use a rolling road or, if you dont have one, connect the controller to the power track (only the power track, no other track connected), put the tender on the power track, prop up the front bogie and let the driving wheels dangle. Oil (not .5 ml, only .1 ml) and water (only zero parts per million distilled water) and turn it on. If the regulator motor cycles without you doing anything (you hear the little motor whirring) then the problem is in the engine. The OO Live Steam Club will repair it for a fee. If it isnt whirring then the problem is most likely the track. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Whilst you are on the rolling road learn all about the control system by trial and error. (Hornby's instruction book is wrong at the "Setting the locomotive in motion" paragraph). Flick the accelerator one second apart a number of times - coud be 30 or 40 - to the point where the red and green cab lights change. Each time you flick you should hear the little motor whirring a few revolutions and stop. Flick backward and forward at this change point - red, green, red, green and leave it on red to get steam up. Once you've got steam up flick toward the green. Continue flicking with the green light on 2 or 3 seconds between flicks. COUNT THE FLICKS. You should see signs of movement around flick 5, reach a good speed by 10 flicks and maximum speed is around 15 flicks but on a layout you never get that far because the loco will be half way to Mars. Flick in the opposite direction to slow down and get back to the red light. Count the flicks as you go and remember how your loco responds. There is always a lag in the mechanism when you start flicking in the opposite direction. It's not a fault. It will take too long to explain here about the whistle and reversing but the whistle ONLY sounds when you are changing direction. An evening in front of the TV on a rolling road doing 3 or 4 half hour steamings will turn you into an expert driver. And join the OO Live Steam Club. It's free.

So many people including Bexhill Donkey have completely missed the point about the fun of Hornby Live Steam and regard it/treat it as a 'novelty'. They can be forgiven if that view is based on a casual glance or a bit of experience with the track in the set. (And don't forget most owners 'bit of experience' is "run once" if ebay descriptions are anything to go by). The reality is that the way it behaves (warts and all!) is SO LIKE THE REAL THING that it is an absolute joy given the challenge of operating it: clap reversing slowly and accurately onto your coaches clap starting a heavy train smoothly without excessive wheel-slip or acceleration clap bringing it slowly round a curve toward the station clap stopping EXACTLY at the right point in the station clap negotiating a gradient at a realistic speed BUT.... clap... getting the power off in time to stop it racing downhill clap then doing it all again with a DIFFERENT loco clap and again with an inefficient loco - where the seals are leaking.. But there is one big drawback to being able to operate it like the real thing - you need a lot of space! If you owned a REAL A4 Pacific you would never get the best out of it by running it round a football field. You probably need 8' x 14' MINIMUM to start appreciating Live Steam. So if it was to come back it could be marketed as a garden railway ideally with a track bed system based on dropping in 3' track lengths (straight and curved with a very large radius) into a substantial ballasted double track roadbed where each section joins with substantial power-passing male/female connectors. It would need clip-on height adjustable supports to even out natural undulations. It could be left outside for long periods but quickly dismantled for mowing the lawn or the worst of the winter. Maybe that modular track idea would help the whole model railway market... but that's another thread.

Only 5 signed up. Is that a reflection of the power of that particular petition site or the actual demand for live steam in 00 scale? It seems to me the best the best evidence of a market is the second hand price of existing models. If they are "unused" or "as new" (that is most of them) or shown to be working well they can command mouth wateringly high prices. But why put them back into production when there are 10,000 or so already out there lying dormant in "as new" condition? Most owners gave up after just one or 2 steamings. All Hornby has to do is "recall" and re-issue them charging the owner a fee to do it. Minimal actual work would be needed (PAT test, clean the electrical connections. change the cylinder seals) but crucially REPLACE THE DISASTROUSLY WRONG INSTRUCTION MANUAL that is still in the box ready to doom the new owner to the same crash after crash fate that original purchaser suffered. Hornby repairs an undeserved bad reputation, makes some money and thousands of new users discover the absolute joy of actually DRIVING a model that behaves just like real steam locomotive. FAR more fun that computer controlled simulation. Then someone decides it's worth going into production again....

I could lend you a transformer and controller if you paid the carriage and a security deposit. It's in every live steam fan's interest to see these used and enjoyed. Contact me via the website of my username. Kind regards. Adrian

I've only just come across this thread and am surprised that no one has talked about the elephant in the room - that most of Hornby's most expensive items today are OO Live Steam models. Why have they got so valuable? I can tell you (as a Live Steam fan) that the high prices are not usually collectors looking to grace their shelves with rare gems. They are fans like me who actually love running them, want more and wish Hornby would develop a new range. They are also new converts often from seeng the OO Live Steam Club at it's Roadshows clearly demonstrating that the OOLS reputation for uncontrolled crashes and unreliabilty is unfounded. The big worry is the people who today buy without support (eg via e--y) and get the original flawed instructions that led the first owner give up. Just look how many listings are described as "used once" or "hardly used" or "test run only".

It's not quite new build but these 'new' live steam locos are a big boost to the limited line-up that has been available and will be welcomed by live steam and LNER fans... Adrian

2 years ago I said "watch this space" for a development by the OO Live Steam Club... we'll here's one. Not quite new-build but defininitely a positive move for live steam and LNER fans... Adrian

/media/tinymce_upload/fb42be060bba180acbcd371d22b02a33.jpg

Agreed, Hornby Live Steam (if ever reissued) will never be a mass market product but it almost was. 1000 units a year at £500 each should be very achievable though. You are quite wrong Margate-Richmond to assume the vast majority of sales were at discount prices. The OO Live Steam Club has had access to the pattern of sales and the vast majorty was in the first 2 years after launch (2003) before the heavy discounting and most of those were sets at £500 or more.Prices only fell when sales plumetted. Even with prices almost halved (to below DCC) it took until 2010 to sell out locos that were built in 2004, such was the poor reputation (undeserved) that the brand earned. See the sales pattern below. If it was to come back it would be based on standard 'mechanics' that could be adapted for different wheel arrangements and short run body production probably 3D printed with high temperature plastic or ceramic. It would probably be superdetailed too. When launched Hornby used old moulds with little detail yet they still sold approaching 10,000 at the high original price In the meantime there are thousands of dormant live steam Mallards out there virtually new begging for batch conversion to Coronation, Merchant Navy, American K4 etc. Those who think it's niche have probably never experienced the thrill of starting a heavy train off with a hint of wheelslip and slowly bringing it to an exact stop having had to judge just when to 'power down' and not get stalled on the curve before the station. Stall on that curve and it's a bigger thrill restarting smoothly. Come and have a go at the OO Live Steam Roadshow. As I write this I cant wait to get out to my big shed and fire up... now which one of the 35?

My understanding is the plan was to produce a Black 5 next. Mixed traffic, all regions, 4-6-0 wheel arrangement offering more possibilities including Great Western. A prototype was built and regularly runs at Club roadshows but back to your considered insight Gowest I agree that any new production now would be based on a pacific chassis. I have championed the revival of live steam for nearly 10 years now for 3 reasons I got to love it very quickly and escaped all the agro because (I see in hindsight) I never got an instruction book! Just a coffee stained photocopy of someones personal notes when I bought a second hand controller with my brand new Dwight D. I just didn't understand why others were struggling and it was years before I discovered the problems in the instruction book.The brand has been unfairly demonised. The bad reputation is largely due to the experience of the majority who DID follow the instruction book and were led to crash after crash by a combination of bad advice and actual errors. "The best way to learn is on the oval of track" was just begging for trouble and the paragraph "Setting your locomotive in motion" got the lights and the whistle the wrong way round inviting drivers to open the throttle at exactly the wrong time. If those 10,000 or so owners could only be discovered now, re-enthused and supported or their dormant models can be moved on (with a new instruction book and close support) there would be no need to start production again (yet).There is considerable development potential. The OO Live Steam Club's £50 add on "Live Drive" has already made control easier and you Gowest and others have shown that radio control (which could run side by side with DCC) is an easy development. Sadly I came to it after it had effectively been discontinued, 2009 - when Hornby and dealers were struggling to dump 5 year old stock at half the price it had originally sold at. The success of the Club that I started suggests that if I had come to it earlier we might have arrested the decline Being realistic now I accept it will never be a mass market - it needs a lot of space to enjoy fully and the owner needs a knowledge and propensity to do maintenance work but the rewards are enormous and very probably worth paying a premium for at small batch levels of a few hundred. One big market limitation is that only A4s and A3s were made. My question to you Gowest is, with your experience of converting Hornby Live Steam chassies, how easy (or difficult) would it be to set up a programme of work to convert, say 100, existing models to (say) Battle of Britains or Coronations if Hornby could be pursaded (and paid!) to mould the bodies using high temperature plastic? You could play a big part in Hornby Live Steam's revival! We'll talk about 9F production later.....that would be my choice for the next Live Steam model.

That contact went quiet and so did that with another university who intended to use a loco body to experiment with 3D printing using PEEK high temperature plastic. One potentially simpler solution would be to get (pay) Hornby to produce a batch of (say) Battle of Britain bodies using the same high temperature plastic they used for the original A4s and A3s. Apparently they were worried about damage to newer moulds so used early Triang moulds. I wonder what other early Triang moulds are sat there redundant, The question then would be how would you produce the mechanicals? Gowest I was immensely impressed by your 9F conversion. Do you have any idea of the practicalities and time economies of scale to produce, say, 100 9F chassies by modifying Mallards?

All I can say at the moment is "watch this space" and, because it will be a very limited run, watch this space VERY closely but whatever happens it will a guide to how Hornby Live Steam is still viewed (as if several sold at over £2000 recently was not guide enough). You say "you guys" so I assume you see through PlanesTV. I should explain that whilst I always appear as PlanesTV (that's the business I have been running and just retired from - an historic name on this forum) I am on the committee of the OO Live Steam Club and firmly believe that Hornby Live Steam is a misunderstood marvel with an unfair reputation. I believe it has a future but not through going back into production but 'reviving' the 10,000 plus out there put away when virtually new and now gathering dust.

obviously got diverted.... meant to say.... that said, you can buy a Mallard set for around what they sold at 10 to 15 years ago, £400 or so.

You are right Son of Triang Man, Hornby Live Steam is not going to be a mass market product again any time soon but slowly but surely usully spurred by a visit the OO Live Steam Club Roadshow, disappointed owners of long dormant locos are having another go, especially with the Club's new add-on Live Drive controller and discovering what fun they are. Newcomers are also sourcing 2nd hand products as evidenced on ebay where some eye-watering selling prices have brought many more onto the market. That said, The Club has also secured/sourced a range of spare parts to supplement Hornby's continuing (thank you Hornby) service support. Watch this space for an announcement of a short production run of 'new' live steam locomotives. The speed that they sell out will be an indicator of demand for a bigger re-launch.

Nothing has changed since 2003 when Hornby estimated the market for live steam was 8000 units a year at £525 (for a set) and £325 for an individual loco. The fact that those figures were not realised was not down to the market but has (with hindsight) been identified as due to errors, omissions and incorrect advice in the original instruction book and accompanying DVD. That meant first adopters were disappointed and put them away after maybe one run. Inflation since 2003 takes those figures to £750 and £475 for 8000 units For 500 units the market will surely pay £1500 and £1000 especially now that some are fetching around £2,500. Hornby is not in a position to restart production but it doesn't need to. There is surely a market for batch production Aster style (100 units) converting existing unused Mallard stock. If Hornby was willing to (say) injection mould 500 (say) Merchant Navy, Duchess and 9F bodies using the high temperature plastic originally used for the Live Steam models then a third party partner could produce small batches of each by modyfying some of the 10,000 dormant models incorporating known improvements. This would be an excellent market test for the mainstream production you allude to Son of Triangman.

OK Ken I am now putting 2 and 2 together. My son lives in Devon so I do visit occasionally, sadly not this Easter and he's coming to Lincolnshire. We need to talk. I'll be in touch.

So the 10,000 virtually new locos gathering dust on people's shelves are effectively scrap? The OO Live Steam Club has already proved there is scope for improvement by bringing out a £50 add-on controller that improves on Hornby's and their cylinder seals and oil additive improve performance too. The instructional DVD has been universally welcomed. Yes the system had imperfections but 10,000 units sat here begging for use and improvement is a hell of a head start to kicking it off again and delivering the immense fun that just a few so far have discovered

It all boils down to whether owning it is sufficient fun to justify the cost. Sadly just about everyone who bought live steam never got to the fun. There's a 2 or 3 hour learning/running-in hurdle to jump and most models coming up for sale are "run once" or brand new so it's clear the owners had a disappointing time. The OO Live Steam Club is trying to persuade owners with dormant locos to have another go (armed now with the right instructions and advice) and catch those starting for the first time. A second hand Mallard set is still very affordable. When there are enough happy owners the demand might be there for a revival.

It will be clear to you that I am a big supporter of Hornby Live Steam. I've got it and I love it but I am aware of its limitations and it's those that will prevent it from being a mass market product. You cant run it around a 6' x 4' track in a third bedroom with any realism. It needs a big space and not many people have that except perhaps in the garden. Marketed as a garden railway with 3' lengths of clip-together track (like we used to do with small lengths on the dining table) then it might become mass market. If it isn't mass market it cant be cheap. That restricts its market but doesn't make it unviable. Gauge One has been successful at around £3000 per loco made in batches of around 100. Owners of maybe just one loco join together into regional clubs and share the running experience. I think OO Live Steam would thrive at £1000 per loco made in batches of say 250 or 500. That's not mass market but the eleven coaches and 50 trucks that Hornby would sell to complete the realism IS mass market and Hornby would benefit from that. (The 'flaws' incidentally have already been sorted or easily can be).

Believe me. The Son of Triangman, I have spoken to hundreds of original Hornby Live Steam owners at the OO Live Steam Roadshows and the most common comment has been lack of control, crash, get rid or mothball. Mothball usually because trade-in values had so slumped that it was best to hang on. Look at ebay sales and note how many are "run once", "test run only" and "hardly used". Direct evidence that owners had an unsatifactory start. We (the OO Live Steam Club) have sales records that show a huge peak for 2004 then a dramatic decline with ever decreasing upward blips as each Christmas came and went. The final blip was 2010 when Hornby dumped the last of their stock to 2KT and Nauticalia. The demise was nothing to do with high prices - they couldn't even move them at £99.99 yet they sold container loads at £500 when it all started. But that poor reputation was unfair. They got that reputation because (in no particular order) sold as a train set buyers expected to connect it up, plug it in and run. Out the box. It doesn't!Hornby didn't make it clear they need running-in over several half hour steamings to run smoothly.The Operator's Manual says learning on the track oval supplied is the best way to learn. It isn't.Hornby should have but never have recommended that first-timers start on a rolling road. Radius 3 supplied in the set is too tight for newcomers.The instructions on Page 27 "Setting the locomotive in motion" are wrong and probably cause a crash.Attempting to run on an existing 12v circuit will almost certainly be disastrous because 12v circuits will almost certainly not transmit a continuous 6 amps of power. The locos get their commands to open or close the throttle by voltage drop. On a 12v circuit locos will appear to have a will of their own, accelerating, stopping abruptly, even going into uncommanded reverse. Not the locos fault.The DVD supplied with the set was made with 12v locos with fake smoke. Live steam locos will not do what locos in the DVD are shown to be doing because:-there is a 5 second lag in the valve mechanics to slow down after speeding up (and vice versa) so:-it is impossible to reverse onto your coaches and pull away in 2 seconds. It takes at least 15 seconds.it is impossible to speed up and slow down quickly on a small circuit to take account of gradientsEvery loco is different. Sometimes very different. Owners might think one is faulty. They are not.Owners talked to each other and through dealers and reinforced the unfair conclusionsHornby's superb Service Department returned apparently faulty items quickly and inexpensively (usually free) but never told owners what they had done - often nothing because they wern't faulty! If only the advice in the original Operator's Manual had been "Run in and learn on a rolling road" then, even with the other errors in the manual, owners would not have crashed their expensive new masterpieces, would probably have learned the joy of something that actually mimics the real thing, warts and all. There was so much potential development in OO Live Steam that, today, it could have dominated the hobby. An opportunity missed yes but, I repeat, with 10,000 plus out there virtually new there is a chance to recall them and reissue them with the benefit of all the hindsight we now have. New instructions. New DVD. New youtube demos. Maybe even an improved controller that the OO Live Steam Club has managed to design and produce for sale at just £50. OK they wont get Papyrus and double-tender Flying Scotsman traded in because they are fetching a premium with collectors but Mallard sets are going on average for around £400. That's what they made most of. No big new investment needed to potentially change and grow the whole model railway market. A fabulous opportunity to change Hornby's fortunes. It has that in its grasp today. I sincerely hope a Hornby Director is reading this. Adrian Campbell Chairman OO Live Steam Club

Gowest you say " I do not see Hornby putting money into live steam any time soon as they need to concentrate on turning the company around with a good base product that does sell well." I agree with you completely But if Hornby was a car manufacturer that had sold thousands of a perfectly good car that owners couldn't drive because of a simple set up problem and those cars now were mostly stuck in peoples garages hardly used they wouldn't need to put them back into production, just work up a trade in scheme, revise the set-up and re-release them into the market. They might even make a lot of money doing it.

Agreed Ken with Vauxhall, Ford and Austin - I was there! But Hornby Live Steam's reputation for unreliability and being difficult to control is unfair. They are VERY easy to control. We have 4 year olds doing it at our Roadshows. If Hornby "recalled" all unused or "Run Once" locos, ostensively to check for safety, and returned them to the market with a new DVD, Instructions and maybe even the OO LIve Steam Club's new controller (it improves on Hornby's) then they wouldn't need to make any more - just test the market by recycling what is, effectively, new stock. I'll bet you these "refreshed" locos would fetch a premium on ebay and worth paying, say, £50 to have done. Covers costs, starts to repair an unfounded reputation and tests the market for new production. Idea?