What About The Bee

Perhaps we can trace it a different way. Does it have a Hornby spare parts number? Bee

My apologies Brew Man. I will mark this down to the great aluminum / aluminium debate! Your PCB board will have printed text on it. Some of that text will be for manufacture, chip orientations and the like. There will be some text which identifies the board, and may include a revision number, etc. The name of the board, as used by Hornby, for internal purposes. It will simply be a string of characters which have no other purpose. Bee

Hi Richard For posterity, would you mind detailing what was hauled in the "Signal Works Engineer, Colchester" wagon? Typical consist? Locomotive used? Purpose? Etc? Whilst this isn't my era, it occurs to me that this is a rare opportunity for Enthusiasts who want to mirror prototype practice. If you wouldn't mind sir? Thanks Bee

Hi Brew Man Firstly, permit me to retract the commonality remark and insert a "it was the identical problem" statement. PCB boards typically have nomenclature on them which serve to identify them. Given we now have two PCBs with this issue, I would urge you to post up that nomenclature for others who might experience the same issue. And yes please, Teditor, the nomenclature on your PCB as well. Bee

My results so far in the Hanazono bogie haul test. The first result is to determine stall current. Stall current happens when the rotor of the motor no longer turns but draws current. I approached this in two ways. Firstly, I simply measured the resistance of the motor. 24 ohms. The design voltage is 12 volts (DC). Therefore, stall current by this method is ½ amp. Secondly, I applied a very low voltage to the motor, insufficient to get the rotor to turn. 0.407 volts. This was measured across the solder tags, in parallel with the motor under test. Next, I measured the current draw in series, without touching the position of the rotor. 0.018 amps. Using ohms law, I find the resistance to be 22.6 ohms and, when used at rated voltage of 12 volts, the stall current will be 0.530 amps. Those results are close enough to be a meaningful result. I will use the more conservative ½ amp for stall current. This will establish some limits as I add weight and perform the haulage test. I never want to exceed 0.250 amps continuous current, as this will lead directly to thermal failure. 0.200 amps continuous is acceptable but will shorten motor life. Ideal would be 0.125 amps continuous. I ran the Hanazono motor bogie suspended in air, wheels up, such that the bearing surfaces, such as they are, were engaged as if the bogie was sitting on track. In forward, the motor drew 0.083 amps on average. In reverse, the motor drew between 0.096 and 0.120 amps, randomly. [Edit: not 0.96 amps!!! Hahaha] It was very inconsistent. Still, within ideal bounds, so I moved the wheels in both directions for ~20 minutes each. Next step will be to service and lubricate. I will then test its ability to get around track while monitoring current. Add weights under self haul test, monitoring current, and then and only then, propel some carriages! Bee

Hi RDS Now that I understand the issue is I can easily avoid it. Its at my end and can control the rotation quite readily. Thank you kindly for the offer to rotate my image. I've simply deleted the strangely rotated image and let the corrected one stand. No sense in making extra work for you gentlemen! Difficult enough as it is. Bee

Hello Richard 👋 The artwork on the model is likely because the wagon at Tamar Belle still retains your signature paintwork. If so, the mystery is solved. Bee

I have no idea why the image would be rotated, but I did notice this occurred previously. I've processed the image, to see if I can correct the issue. Hopefully this appears correctly. If it does, I can insure I won't get this issue again. Apologies for the extra work mods. Bee

Hi Rana 👋. You have read my mind! Ha! I've gone for Hanazono motor bogies, with spoke wheels. Here is an image, comparing some 'generation three' tenders with the Hornby Lion tender. [EDIT: corrected image below.] The tender in back is installed on the top of a bogie, whereas the tender in front is not. The Hanazono motor bogie is displayed. Will they pull or push much? Welp, they can certainly haul themselves around. I will try to propel a few carriages and report back. Bee

Brew Man, you wrote: I agree with the commonality, and I absolutely do not think you are hijacking any thread. We are troubleshooting an issue. Positing theories may lead to resolution. Brainstorming may take many twists and turns. Your idea may be the one. Never give up! If we are to discard the mechanical binding theory, and are focused on the DCC ready PCB, then I would consider intermittent shorting. A bit of kapton tape around the PCB will completely isolate it from any arc to ground. Teditor is about to eliminate the PCB with direct wiring. This will prove instructive. Bee

Hi WeyMatt 👋. Just tap your circular icon in your current post, and it leads you to every one of your prior posts. Quite convenient Bee

Hi DRC 👋. Of course, I don't own any of those coaches, completely out of my era. But tractive effort is not reserved to one model. In my view, numerical values will prove useful. How much tractive effort do your locomotives supply? How much drag do your coaches offer? This light duty spring scale https://www.google.com/shopping/product/4591460253409083003 has a 50 gram capacity, 3% accuracy, 100 graduations. 0.5 grams per graduation. There are heavier duty spring scales, at 100 grams, 250 grams, etc What you need DRC, is a Dynamometer Car. As do I. Science! Bee Edit: Pesola Spring Scales are available down to 10 grams capacity! If we assume the same number of graduations, that is 0.1grams per graduation.

Interesting. Hyperlinks no longer have any color indication that they are links! They just look like bold text on my mobile device Edit: same on my laptop They function as links, but there is no indication that they are links. Bee

Hi Brew Man 👋 OP suggested that he is using a blanking plate, so there is no decoder. It is a DC model. You wrote that it seems to be a power transmission problem. That is what I was after. A suggestion of something binding as it runs. OP states that it runs for a bit, and stops. Reverses, runs for a bit and stops. Perhaps that is consistent with your experience? I make no claims of clairvoyance or ability to diagnose an issue without examining the evidence first hand, I merely provided a possible mode of mechanism binding. Could it be other bits? Sure. Have you tried removing the slide valve and connecting rods, and treated it like a diesel? That is, gears rotate wheels and nothing after that. Divide and conquer! Bee

Planet is certainly on my Hornby wishlist. Yet a sensible person can easily see that Hornby will not be shipping a Planet model anytime in the near future. Maybe someday, but not soon. One option, then, would be to scratch build Planet. Planet, Liverpool and Manchester Railway #9, represents the first major step away from the Rocket-type locomotives. Planet was a railway revolution. The pistons and cylinders moved under the smoke box and were arranged horizontal to travel. This eliminated the Rocket-type's ungainly side to side wobble, due to the pistons working against the undercarriage springs. Further, the location under the smoke box pre-warmed the cylinders, which inhibits condensation upon initial steam admission, limiting hydrolock. One of the most visually defining features of Planet are the oscillating handles¹ on the footplate. Those handles are a Robert Stephenson design. What are those handles? What do they do? What is a steam locomotive without the operating mechanism to draw in the eye? They are quite noticeable in all the videos of the replica. Link: Mr. Dawson provides an excellent explanation of how the Planet replica functions. I recommend this video unreservedly. The handles are indirectly connected to the slide valve rods. As the slide valve rods move, the oscillating handles follow. Slide valve rods also move the slide valves, which provide for the admission of steam to the piston. There is a pedal on Planet's footplate which selects the locomotive direction. If the pedal is up, the locomotive runs in reverse. If the pedal is all the way down, the locomotive runs forward. In either of these two positions, the timing of the slide valves, and therefore the positions of the oscillating handles, are controlled by the rotational angles of the eccentrics. But if the pedal on the footplate is at the midpoint [there is a detent for this] the sliding valve timing is disconnected from the eccentrics and the slide valves may then be controlled by the handles!!! That is, the enginemen can admit steam to either cylinder, on either side of the piston, at will, via handle manipulation. This is their purpose!! The enginemen used the handles to shift the slide valves, to get the locomotive started in the correct direction. Once the locomotive was going in that direction, the enginemen would then move the footplate pedal to either up or down and let the eccentrics take control. To better understand how this works, I decided to make a constrained mathematical model which functions as Planet would, albeit with numbers and equations instead of mechanisms and steam. Link: As the wheel turns, an axle mounted gear, red, drives a secondary gear, also red. The eccentric is the small yellow circle in the center of the secndary gear. Planet has the eccentric as part of the main axle, but for clarity and ease of modeling, I placed the eccentric on a secondary gear. Note that the radius of the eccentric defines the travel of the slide valve and eventually the angular travel of the handles on the footplate. In the side view, the yellow rod follows the eccentric around. This is connected to the slide valve rod, yellow, at the large red dot, representing a hinge. The slide valve rod drives the slide valve forward and back. You should see that the linear travel of the slide valve rod is defined by the radius of the eccentric. As the steam chest holds pressurized steam, there must be packing to constrain that steam from escaping alongside the slide valve rod. This constrains the slide valve rod to strictly linear motion. The slide valve rod protrudes out of the front of the steam chest. There is a Scottish Yoke² that drives a crank. A Scottish Yoke changes linear motion to rotary motion (or visa versa). The Scottish Yoke is depicted as two short vertical members in yellow on the slide valve rod, capturing the top of the crank. A purple crank is connected to the front pivoting lever, brown. The pivoting lever pivots on the center of the three points. As the slide valve rod moves back and forth, the Scottish Yoke forces the crank to rotate, and as it does, it causes the front pivot lever to rotate. The angular travel of the front pivoting lever is therefore controlled by the radius of the eccentric. The angular travel in my model is +/-10°. There are two blue rods that drive the rear pivoting lever, also brown. If you go back and examine the initial image "The oscillating handles", you can now pick out the blue rods and the rear pivoting lever, clearly depicted. The two pivoting levers and the two blue rods form a parallelogram. Whatever angle is created at the front pivoting lever, the rear pivoting lever will match it. So as the Scottish yoke in front drives an angle into the front pivoting lever, the rear pivoting lever is also driven to that angle. Finally, a purple crank represents the handle on the footplate. It is connected to the rear pivoting lever. When the footplate pedal is either up or down, the motion of the wheel causes the purple lever on the footplate to oscillate, in time with the slide valve. Now if the pedal is at the midpoint and the eccentrics disconnected, you should be able to see that the enginemen can move the lever to manipulate the slide valve directly. Link: Nearly identical to the left side, the mechanism on the right hand side is for the right hand piston, slide valve and right hand footplate handle, this time in green. Now a model need not drive the mechanism as illustrated. There are no slide valves to manipulate. There is no steam to admit. There is no pedal to engage, disengage the eccentric. I did think it meaningful to understand the oscillating handle mechanism Planet possess. The animated mechanism may take quite a bit of torque to drive, limiting my pulling power. The numbers, formulas and constraints operate without regard to friction, but the real world is a cruel master. One alternative would be this simple crank. Link: The handles oscillate with almost the same motion. There is a small difference in the position of the handle vs time in cycle. This is due to the difference in drive between the Scottish Yoke³ and the eccentric levers depicted here. The number of oscillations is timed to the wheels, as before. I can either leave the unnatural handle extensions in plain sight through the footplate, or turn the extensions 90° and drive them into the firebox. You would have to be very familiar with Planet to notice these extra extensions. Yet if I was to add the parallelogram levers, rods and then the front slide valve rod, the frictional component is nearly the same as before. The Scottish yoke and slide valve rod would still be present. The sliding friction would be as well. And I would be left with those odd handle extensions to offend my eye. What is a steam locomotive without the operating mechanism to draw in the eye? Nothing. Planet had oscillating handles on the footplate. So does Patentee. So must my models. Thus, the planning begins. Bee ¹ Patentee also has oscillating handles. ² This is the formal nomenclature for the mechanism. I do hope no feathers are ruffled by the use of proper nomenclature. This short video explains how a Scottish Yoke functions. Link: To see the replica's Scottish Yoke, view Mr. Dawson's excellent video at 4:17. You will see the steam chest with the steam chest lid removed. The slide valves and rods are demonstrated. As the camera pans back, you will see the Scottish Yoke on the bottom of the screen and the front pivoting lever, as well as the parallelogram connecting rods. ³

Hi Teditor Just a thought, but may prove worthy of consideration. Suppose the gear mesh on a set of gears is too tight, two pieces of junk in the gear mesh which line up or gear teeth with a bit of damage. The model runs until that particular alignment of the gear train/mechanism is reached, and, representing a retarding force to great for the motor to over come, it stalls the motor. Topcat's current draw test will show this. Gear ratios being what they are, it may take some time for the particular alignment to come around each time. That is, the model will run for a bit, and then stop when it hits that alignment. Reverse, and it runs for a bit then stops upon that alignment. Freewheel rotate the wheels until the entire gear train is cycled multiple times, end to end. Looking for a high point may take several cycles to appear. Just a thought. Bee

Hi WeyMatt The purpose of the exercise is to get you to understand polarity and how to control it manually. Automation happens after that! No one is slipping out of the conversation. I'm also fairly comfortable asserting that there has been no offense taken in this thread, by anyone or by any means! You are just fine as you are. When you present the requested diagrams, there will be many who will chime in. Probably to correct me 😉. Bee

Hi OP6 While you wait for Hornby to produce the required item, perhaps you would consider making the step coupler yourself. Determine the vertical step you need. Get two couplers. Cut one to obtain the NEM clip, cut the other to obtain the Roco coupling less the NEM clip. Install the vertical step, using small screws to connect all three parts, to inhibit shear of the pieces. Viola! A step coupling, of the desired flavor. Eventually (?? maybe ??) Hornby will produce the required part. You can substitute the factory produced coupling when (?? if ??) it arrives. Personally, I would be more satisfied with my own rather than the factory item, as it would demonstrate my mastery of the situation. Your mileage may vary of course. Bee

Hi WeyMatt I think 96RAF and I get along just fine. 96RAF, naturally, may speak for himself. Technical discussions are not indicative of personal rancor. Model railways have many facets and we are always learning, all of us. Some are further along the curve than others. In simple fact, I am quite appreciative of the vast knowledge base displayed. The discussions here are meant in a genial sense. Treat them thusly, and you too will get along! Now go do your homework and present us with the diagrams 🙂. We will get you to the next level but your cooperation is needed. Cheers Bee

Hi 96RAF At this juncture, I am making an attempt at showing WeyMatt what a short is and the very basics of how to deal with it. After an extensive exhange of messages, we have at last arrived at the root of WeyMatt's issue, to wit, polarity. We shall not speak of his temerity in disobedience of SWMBO, but following the Admiral's direction is advised 😉 I know every lad here can draw the circuit. The ladies too. What I am trying to do is teach WeyMatt how to do it. There are indeed 1000 ways to skin a cat. Let us show WeyMatt the first way. Bee

Hi Alberto 👋. Always nice to see progress on your layout. You say "Finished". Is a layout ever finished????? I don't think that is possible! Bee

Hi Matthew 👋. Let us suppose the most simple of situations. We have a straight run of track. Perfectly straight, no points, nothing. Just a straight. In the middle of that straight is a gap. This gap provides electrical isolation. You could use insulated rail joiners here, but this is not necessary for our experiment. We will wire this layout such that when at the northern end, headed south, the right rail is +. When at the southern end, headed north, the right rail is +. Now if you are following along, you will notice that at the gap + faces -, for both tracks. If you were to command the locomotive across the gap, you will electrically short the controller at the gap, because + is connected to -. Full stop. Draw this and study it until you understand what I am showing you. This is an electrically short. It removes all the air out of the layout balloon. Suppose we had a way to flip the electrical polarity (change + to -, and - to +) when we wanted to go onto the track after the gap. Then, when the locomotive crosses the gap, + meets + and - meets -. Naturally, you would need this on both the southern and northern end of our straight. In direct current (analog), you will require a double pole, double throw switch on both the northern and southern end of our straight to make this work. Full stop, if you do not know what a DPDT switch is, go get a diagram from the internet and learn how they work. There are literally thousands of explanations on the internet of how they function. You should be able, at the end of this exercise, be able to drive from the northern end to the southern end, and visa versa, without creating a short. Keep going until you can draw the diagram of the wiring. Now if you are in Digital Command and Control, there are far more elegant solutions. In DCC, you command the loco, not the track. A device, such as a frog juicer, automatically switches the track polarity for you. Before you jump to a frog juicer, though, learn the basics. Bee

Hi Matthew 👋. There are a thousand ways to skin a cat. The cat doesn't like many of them. Here is how I check for return loops. Not "the" way, just the way I do it. Take out two colored pencils. The colors don't matter, but they should contrast. Say red and blue. Pick some spot on your layout. Pick out one of the two rails, say the right rail. Right, Red. Pick up red and start tracing your right rail. Keep going in the same direction until you have all the right rails colored red. Do the same for the left rail, only this time in blue. Left, Blue. Every time red meets blue, you have a polarity issue, which requires attending to. Fishy already spotted two, and you should find those quite readily. Are there others? Consider frog polarity at each point/turnout. When you trace your rails, red will meet blue at every point/turnout. Every one. I get the sense that you are just starting out on your model railway adventure. If so, welcome aboard!! If not, please disregard the following. Starting with a very large and complicated layout, such as the one you present, is bound to prove a monumental task that will burn out the person attempting it. It is entirely too big for a relative newcomer. Start smaller and learn all the tasks required, such that when you do understand what and how, you can build the layout you present. Apologies to all cat lovers. No cats were skinned in the writing of this post. Bee

Arithmetic mistakes can creep into anyone's calculation 96RAF. Especially mine! 🤷‍♂️ Long ago, I grovelled at the feet of a true genius. The man had 50, count em, 50 US patents. I was one of his reports. He would question every mathematical result I put before him, demanding that I put the numbers (with units) on a piece of paper. This was no use of course, when presented with such a calculation written out, he would say "Those are just numbers on a piece of paper". Quite the character. Hi Matthew 👋. Anyone who can come up with such a complicated layout, over multiple levels, surely does not need to be told how to return to lower levels. The play value will be something only you can answer. If it were me, I'd call the incline the Wapping Tunnel, and have it directly in front the operator. This presents as a "half tunnel" you can see inside, with the cavity lined with the material of your choice. Some lights on the wayside and it becomes an attractive feature, a different perspective. But hey ho, that's just me. Bee

Hi 96RAF Isn't the incline measured as rise over run? For a rise of 12" over 560", I get 12/560 = 0.0214. Multiply by 100 to get 2.1% Am I doing this wrong? Bee