What About The Bee

On another project, I required casien glue. This isn't sold commercially anymore, but the Forest Products Laboratory (US Govt Agency) did preserve the recipe Off I went, and purchased the requisite chemicals. As this was a marine application, a small dose of copper chromate was required. This is to be added last. Imagine my surprise, upon adding the copper chromate to the pale grey glue, the entire mass turned bright purple!! Copper chromate is greenish. After drying, the glue eventually turned brown. There is little doubt in my mind, ThreeLink, that your green ballast is the result of a chemical reaction betwixt your glue and stone. Bee

Hello All I thought to give an update on this project, so as to keep motivation high. As I plod thru the Armengaud drawings, I am struck by the dimensional accuracy. I have found each pixel is 1.3 mm, this on an overall length of 5.056 meters. That is an astonishing 1 part in 3800+. Presented here is my CAD model. It is drawn 1:1, not 1:76.2, as the model will come after the full scale representation of Planet The sandwich frames are shown with the metal in purple, the wood in gray. The metal wraps around the corners and on the outside, is let into the front wood member. The front corner brackets tie the frames together. There should be rear corner brackets, but as these will be buried under the footplate, I saw no need to model them. Similarly, no effort will be made on internal boiler tubes, even though Armengaud shows those as well. The rear draw pin bracket is two parts, the outer member wraps around the rear frame, and is let into the wood on top. The front and rear plates are different in more than just height, to my great surprise! Modern standards would require commonality of design and therefore commonality of parts. Stephenson did not feel so constrained. In any event, all 8 plates are present and accurate to Armengaud. A dilemma presents itself. It occurs because the Planet Class was quite large and widespread over many railways. Armengaud shows the front springs BELOW the frame Yet the Stephenson drawing, used in the animations, shows the front springs ABOVE the frame. Finally, the replica shows the front springs ABOVE the frame. Above the frame they shall be. This is relatively easy to do and will be consistent with Stephenson. Bee

Hello Peter Your post motivated me to look at my points. I ordered Tiger within 15 minutes of Range Launch and have received it about the third week in February. My points were accurately credited and are available to "spend". It is extremely likely that Hornby run an update utility on the database, as I cannot believe it is done manually. It runs at an unknown update frequency. A periodic reconciliation. Like DRC says, it appears a bit random, so we can see that it is not every day. Give this a few days and check back. If not mistaken, you are the fellow who was also waiting on his membership kit. I do hope that you were able to confirm your membership as suggested. Fingers crossed that has been resolved. If I may, here is a bit of completely unsolicited old man advice, and who doesn't just adore that!!! This hobby runs a bit slowly, and Hornby epitomizes that statement. Their heart is in the right place, undoubtedly so. Your situation(s) will be sorted. Patience!! End of unsolicited advice. Please disregard at your whim!! Thanks! Bee

Hi DRC I seem to recall CAD images from Hornby on that 'drawbar'. If not mistaken, the drawbar contains all the electrical signals and power, eliminating those cable loops hanging down. Just the interconnecting loco and tender blocks. Is that the one? Bee

Hi ThreeLink 👋 With regards to the packing gland, or 'stuffing box', Armengaud is silent. In the image of Planet's cylinder, two packing gland cavities are shown. Both are at working boiler pressure. I added the colors for clarity. The red packing gland seals the piston rod. The green packing gland seals the rod which drives the slide valve. In neither case does Armengaud have letter references or other demarcation to indicate relevant associated text. You would think this of some interest, as the initial packing glands, developed by James Watt, himself, were in the 1760s, a mere 70 years before Planet. Yet Armengaud is silent on the gland itself Note the piston N. There appear to be two piston rings, I think we can see the split in the ring on the right. Piston rings are still used today in internal combustion engines. So this seal was understood I'm not sure where we can go further with the Planet's packing glands. If Stephenson could seal the piston rods and slide valve rods against working pressure, he would have little issue sealing the water interconnection between the tender and locomotive at atmospheric pressure. I poked around at historical packing glands, which brings us to James Watt, who used tallow and oil. I did see one reference to leather piston rings, lending absolute credence to rhino hide seals. Strings impregnated with tallow. All sorts of materials. But in the end, what Planet used on the LMR is currently out of my reach. I hope that helps! Bee

Hello Peter They take about 2 weeks to reply to emails, given the current volume. I know this is frustrating, but a bit of patience is required. The important bit is the member discount on purchases. In my view, that is the primary reason to join the membership. If that is valid, and I firmly expect that it will be, your membership is too! Check that by making a straw purchase. Confirm that the member discount was applied in 'my orders' under your account. Peace of mind obtained, cancel the straw purchase. Serenity is achieved. Bee

Hello Peter Please do contact Customer Service to address your specific concern. I know it seems silly, but Hornby does not monitor, nor respond to, posts on the HORNBY forum. Bee

Hi Topcat 👋 Please do inspect the drawing with the words "Linear Extension" prominently displayed. The pipe betwixt the two ball and sockets is actually two pipes, one inside the other. So the inside and outside pipes slide longitudinally with respect to each other. The gland packing is to the right, just before the right ball. As to canvas hoses, certainly that is possible. The vertical distance from the water level in the tender, down to the interconnection is a few feet. That would have linearly increased pressure with depth. If a canvas hose was used, it would likely leak like a sieve, draining the tender. Armengaud did not invent his connection from whole cloth. He drew something that did exist, albeit maybe not to exclusion of all other solutions. @ThreeLink After closer examination, I do think packing could be placed at the join line of the two piece socket. This would effectively seal the ball. Nothing definitive, just a thought. Bee

Hi ThreeLink 👋 I must admit that I do not speak or read French. In order to get the relevant text description, I use the plate number, figure and letter references to find likely candidates within the text of the book. I then use a photo translation tool which only permits a sentence or three at a time. It provides, at times, hilarious results. You raise the point of a hose. To our eyes, this is so obvious! A flexible conduit for water. Why not? For 1830s England, that would be a complete anachronism. That is, a water tight conduit, that was flexible, simply did not exist. Hancock and Macintosh, along with Goodyear, were in the process of developing the India Rubber patents. Gutta Percha was off in the future. Do not miss the 1887 advertisement: https://thegardenstrust.blog/2019/07/13/the-history-of-hosepipe/ So instead of an over engineered solution, the water interconnection appears to be a reasonable approach. The other thing which occurs to me is that Armengaud is simply showing off, ineffective hoses were used, but this seems quite unlikely to me. The linear extension has the standard packing gland, right hand side between the ball and socket joints. This would be the same type of packing gland used at the steam chest and piston rods, so it would be reasonably effective vis un-pressurized water. The socket, of the ball and socket, can be tightened down with the threaded rod and nuts present. I do not see any other means of making it water tight. No problem getting the parts to rotate relative to each other, Planet on one side, a full tender on the other. That will provide a large torque moment. As to the theorized return: we are in full agreement! It, again, is so obvious. Yet try as I might, I could not find one. I thought I had found it with the "squirt", but that connected to nothing AND the translation, whilst hilarious, eventually became clear. Not the return. I am left with either the pumps constantly pumping OR shutting the flow off with concomitant pump issues. In the first analysis, the boiler will get water beyond safety pressurization. The full power of Planet from the cross head forcing water into the boiler is an issue. Consider the extrema: it will drive the pressure in that vessel very high indeed. To the extent that it may stop the crosshead, damage the mechanism, damage the pump or destroy the boiler vessel. Perhaps this is why the primary shut off valves are on the tender. The fireman could maintain the correct water level via observation of the glass and adjustment of the valves. In the second analysis, once the water in the pump chamber is slightly reduced, it will not develop sufficient pressure to overcome the upper ball seat. That is, the water sloshes around but goes no where. The pump doesn't run dry, but is ineffective at driving water into the boiler. I would like to emphasize that this is just my understanding at this time. Further discovery and analysis awaits. The entirety of the Planet class locomotive drawn by Armengaud is very rich with detail. I'm just scratching the surface. I did think it interesting to bring forth, in light of the recent discussion of your model of the Penydarren locomotive. Your solution is correct! Bee

As I plod through reproducing Planet in CAD, for my intended model, I study the Armengaud images to see how the parts interrelate. Along the way, I have noticed how water is introduced into Planet's boiler, even though Planet's boiler is under pressure. While this detail is extremely unlikely to migrate into my model, I think it interesting. We begin at Park Side. Park Side was the approximate halfway point between Liverpool and Manchester. The locomotives took on fuel and water here. The LMR detail appears in Colyer, and shows the water crane in situ, along with a Planet Class locomotive. This does not offer us many details, but thankfully, Armengaud shows us the complete workings. The main valve is located below grade, likely to keep it from freezing. When open, water flows up the empty column and into the boom which can rotate. At the top is a pull chain valve, weighted such that it is normally closed. When the chain is pulled, the valve is opened and water can flow in the boom to the tender. On the top of the tender, we can observe two rotary handles. These handles are on Hornby's Lion and Tiger tenders . I've also seen the video of the replicas, wherein the enginemen turn those handles. I did not understand, at the time, what they did. I do now. These are connected to two valves, located in the base of the tender When the valves are open, water can flow from the tender. The interconnection between the tender and locomotive is quite interesting. Here is the view of the device in situ, hanging from a chain off of the footplate. And here is the cut away. The middle region, at B', is a linear extension, that is, one tube slides inside of another. To compensate for angular deflection, there are two ball and socket connections at either end of the linear extension. This allows Planet to move relative to the tender, without hoses! Note that there are two of these, one on either side of the footplate Fantastic, the water is now onboard Planet, still at atmospheric pressure. The water is directed to cross head pumps. There are two, one on each crosshead Armengaud provides us with a cut away detail of the internal workings of the pump. When the pump piston retracts, negative pressure is created in chamber, lifting the lower ball from it's seat, drawing water up. The ball, contained in its cage, re-seats due to gravity. The pump drives forward, creating pressure in the chamber. When the pressure in the chamber is greater than the pressure in the boiler, the upper ball lifts from its seat, and water flows into the boiler. Viola! Water is injected into the boiler. A couple of details. 1) The tiny upright pipe at the end of the pump is noted to be for the enginemen to check that the pump is pumping! When the valve there is opened, water will come out of the small pipe like a squirt gun, completely visible to the enginemen. Proof the pump is working. 2) Why all the duplication? When water is not present at the top of the firebox, the boiler can fail. Insuring the water remains at that level means a functional pump. Without it, loco go boom. Recall that the enginemen have a way to insure a pump is actually pumping. So two pumps implies that the designers were very concerned about pump failure. 3) What if the boiler is full? How to stop the pumps? The pump is hard connected to the crosshead. It is in motion when Planet is in motion. It cannot be stopped. What can be stopped is the flow of water. The valves in the tender tanks can be closed individually.

Hi TVR 👋 I just went through that trying to compare the LMR to modern image. There does not appear to be one value. The numbers are all over the map. The minimum appears to be 3.5 meters, centered on the centerline of the track (1.75 meters from centerline). But higher speeds demand higher numbers. I have seen numbers as high as 5 meters. Bee

Hello Simon 👋 Welcome The track gauge is a fairly critical item. Too wide, and the wheels fall in, leading to derailment. Too narrow, and the wheels ride up, leading to derailment. This Hornby Railway Collectors Association website claims that the gauge varied a bit, but was 32 mm. https://www.hrca.net/2-uncategorised/10-o-gauge-fact-sheet You would be well advised to create a tool to measure the inside distance, from rail to rail, that is 32 mm long. Go completely around your track and insure that the track gauge is correct. Antique track is also widely available and you may wish to simply replace the wonky track pieces with better. Bee

I am a big fan of competitive spirit. Firstly, the prototypes are there. These prototypes are available to all and sundry. No company has the exclusive rights to a 9F or a Deltic. Yes, certain locomotives are covered under copyright, like Thomas, but those are exceptions, not the rule. Competition benefits the Enthusiast, as every company will try to out do the others. Be it price, accuracy, detail or what have you, competition is good for us. If a company wants to compete for business, they would do well to understand the competitions offerings. In detail. Specifically what is good about them and how to do better. So if Accurascale "muscles in" on Hornby, or Hornby "muscles in" on Rapido, I say.... LET THE GAMES BEGIN! Bee

Hi RallyMatt 👋 A big part of the hobby for me is research. I want to run models, yet I want to run them correctly! For me, this is a gem of detail. The period drawings show a double track mainline, and now I know the proper spacing. I do agree, the models coming out are wonderful. I'd still be researching, due to my great curiosity about the LMR, but running no models without Hornby and Accurascale. Bee

Whilst researching Planet, I encountered a set of mechanical drawings, drawn by authors who also wrote a book, among other tomes, on mechanical drawings! From this, I can infer drawing accuracy in the plates you are about to see. The Planet class drawings are simply fabulous. More details than I can shake a stick at. Apparently, they were used to construct the Planet replica that steams today. More on those drawings at another time. Armengaud et Armengaud, L'Industrie des Chemins de Fer, 1839. Yes, in French. Plates 22 and 23 are very interesting on the topic of curtains. Exterior and Undercarriage Exterior end views and cut away interior These drawings show an "Ordinary Wagon for Travelers". We can be quite sure that this is an early carriage, as there is nothing other than dumb buffers in the undercarriage. The text associated with this carriage indicates it was used on the railway between St. Germain and Versailles. Note the steps. They are the exact steps that appear on Hornby LMR stock. The text does state that the roof has a metal sheath over wood. The upper sides of the carriage are composed of "curtains" and "hangings". Those were the exact words used, albeit in French. The text does not specify what they are made of. Now I can not state what the curtains are made of, but the bottom hem and the drape of those curtains is very suggestive. Click on the image and select "view image". Then zoom in for a very close inspection. What do you think these curtains are made of? Bee

Here is generation 2 of my buffer adapter. The middle member has the wood grain running side to side, with the front plates and back plate grain running vertically. The metal threaded rod is installed and bolted. A bit of 242 Locktite to keep it secure. This is far and away more robust than generation 1. I did have a problem with the #61 drill bits for the thru hole. My drill press could not grip the tiny diameter, so I was forced to use a hand drill. That's never as precise as a drill press, so the nuts aren't in a line, they are a bit wonky. Not noticeable at 3 feet. The nuts, being a real three dimensional part, really pop on the buffer adapter. The rosewood grain really shows. I may add a touch of varnish to bring out the color Bee

Hi 96RAF Thank you kindly for the suggestion. I chose FreeCAD for lots of reasons, including the ones you mention. Lots of online tutorials. Rich community. It also has a vast array of real CAD tools and it it is parameter driven. An example of this is the counter bore radius. I looked in my shop, and could only find a 0.104" flat bottom drill, nothing smaller. Instead of buying another flat bottom drill at the radius I designed, I dialed in the radius of the new drill. This was a problem, as the counterbores now intersected, a no no. So I changed the 2 parameters that represented the axes of the 4 holes....and all the parts, threaded rods, nuts, etc, all adjusted. I did not change the dimension on every part individually, I changed the parameter those dimensions were linked to. Viola! I do suppose this is like Scarm v AnyRail, or any other track planning tool. Its a choice. Bee

Hi ThreeLink 👋 Truth be told, I find making kit is far and away more impressive than purchasing it. Respect! Bee

In consideration that both the utility wagons and flat bed wagons were general purpose, it is entirely possible that broken down wagons were hauled away in this fashion. Maybe not 3 high! Bee

Hi JJ 👋 I certainly did not expect the stacked up wagons! That was a bit of fun. Did Tiger meet with your approval? You never did say if you liked Tiger, or not. Bee

Hi Tony57 👋 I am located in the US, but an LMR Enthusiast. So OO for me! What Hornby is to OO in the UK, Lionel Trains is to O in the US. Either company dominates their respective market. Sure, there are other companies, but the 800 gorilla in the room is Hornby in the UK, and Lionel in the US. I've posted this information before, but it bears repeating. If you want the top of the line Lionel locomotive, you are in the $2000 range. Add in rolling stock and, well, gasp. One train (loco & rolling stock combined) had an overall price of $4500 (£3700). I, for one, do not consider Hornby to be expensive in a comparative sense. But further, what one person considers an inexpensive price and another person expensive, for the same item is this: personal station in life, personal budget. Example: A sheik from Saudia Arabia is worth billions. He would not blink at purchasing multiple copies of the entire range. Its cheap. Example: a mudlark worth pennies. He would blink at the lowest priced item, far beyond his reach. Its expensive. Bee

While I do have some sympathy for James, it is tinged with a healthy dose of realism. With due respect to "record profits", those are in absolute dollars, not inflation adjusted dollars. To anyone who hasn't seen the accounting numbers on a project, the price of any item seems a mystery. Who pays for the Customer Representatives who answer your questions? Does Simon work for free? Did the shipping fee factor in to your numbers? How about debt service on business loans? The rent on the offices. The health insurance for office staff? How about Montana, does she work for free? The engineers? The manufacturing facility in China? The short answer is YOU. You pay for all of this, plus a return on investment for the shareholders. You pay for it in the price of a model. Unlike one youTube reviewer who states that the price of a model is somehow related to its size (?!? here's looking at you ST.), the roll up cost of a model is a business decision. It is up to the purchaser to decide if it is worth it. And within their budget. As to you James, may I suggest the second hand market. There are plenty of excellent videos showing repairs. The hobby is much, much more than buying a ready to run locomotive and turning the controller knob. Bee

Where to begin? I can sketch parts with a pencil and paper and then make them. However, this becomes highly ineffective as the part complexity increases. If I am to make Planet, with oscillating handles, it will require CAD. There are a few free CAD packages available. I selected FreeCAD 0.18. After a few tutorials, I decided that Tiger's front buffer adapter would be an interesting first challenge. Generation 1 worked to propel chaldrons in the banking test. Yet the part was fragile. On to generation 2. I acquired some threaded rod and nuts in the 0000-160 persuasion, so as to make the part more robust. Instead of pine, I will use rosewood, a tropical hardwood scrap from an earlier project. In FreeCAD, the rectangular blocks were fairly straightforward. The through holes and counter bores were slightly more challenging. The threaded rods were a difficult challenge. These were not constructed from a library. Rather, a rod (0.021" diameter) was extruded and external threads applied via a helix of the correct threads per inch (160) and subtractive pipe. The nuts were even more of a challenge. A hexagon was extruded. The chamfers on the top and bottom surfaces were applied, so as to relieve the corners. A thru hole, of the minor thread diameter (0.0128") was applied. Finally the internal threads were constructed using the helix process as above. And the threaded parts, with my index finger, for a sense of scale Bee

Hello Alberto Always a pleasure to see a locomotive on your layout! Bee

If you enjoy making things, then how could you not afford this? Be it a tree or a utility building. A locomotive or a signal tower. It matters not. An activity to keep the mind sharp and the fingers nimble. If the latest RTR bauble is within reach, so be it. If not, well, there is always something else. If the locomotive of your dreams is not RTR (cough Planet cough), then make it Bee