What About The Bee

July 11

Hi Dukedog,

At first, I was going to suggest moving the fiddle yard to the top (outside of the loops), as then it could be double ended easily. But, with the walls now defined, that's not feasible.

I will make a firm recommendation before you build a single thing. Get a large piece of cardboard and cut out the openings shown. Support it horizontally at the height you intend for that board, and get into the openings. Literally crawl under and stand up. Try turning and moving around. Move from one opening to the other. Get the feel of maneuvering yourself in those spaces.

Why?

I think they are quite tight. I'm not convinced you can turn around in some, as they may be too narrow. You will also be required to bend like a pretzel to get into these holes. Before you paint yourself into a very constricted corner, trial those openings.

Further, if this is for you and the grandchildren, will they fit with you in those spaces? Its the interaction with the kids, the talking, pointing and sharing you will want. Can't have that if you are locked in one hole, they in the other.

++++++

As to the layout itself. I think it is just fine. NTP rightly notes the 4 into 2 tracks as a limiting factor. It might be, but it also might be the perfect challenge to stimulate the Train Master (you) to keep them from crashing. Ditto all the potential conflicts when switching those scissors crossovers. Stimulation via conflict.

As to the upper level? I've come around to your point of view. If that is for the grandchildren to run, then a simple layout will be better for them, age dependent. You can always add interlockings and inclines later, as they show more interest.

But try the cardboard test. I think you may make a few slight changes 😉

Bee

July 11

I am enthusiastic about Hornby's web pages coming back in house.

Finally, errors will be corrected, or so I hope. With direct sales up 18%, and the webpages the store, it behooves Hornby to get this bit correct

Bee

July 10

7P6F

P = Passenger

F = Freight

The higher the number, the stronger the locomotive

7P means seventh category of strength for Passenger

6F means sixth category of strength for Freight

July 10

Hi Dukedog

Is the layout wall to wall in the room?

Which sides are accessible from the outside?

Can you sketch in the walls?

Bee

July 10

Re: warped prints.

I had some. Asked about it on Shapeways message boards. Was told to put in warm water. Rational was that items are bagged when warm, hot off the press. They are deformed by packaging. Placing them in warm water allows the item to de-stress/relax. Never tried it but others reported success.

Bee

July 10

7 hours ago, 81F said:

...Shapeways has ceased operation so it is most unlikely that I will be able to finish this...

There are other 3D printing services 81F. I have noticed them while working with Shapeways. A quick search reveals their names. I will just pick another one. You may wish to consider this. No need to abandon everything.

There were rumblings of dissatisfaction on Shapeways message boards.

Shapeways had, within the past few years, changed print technologies in fine detail plastic. The fineness of unsupported walls and wires had become coarser as a function of the print technology. So a product that someone was already selling suddenly became unprintable. The design would be kicked out by the Shapeways software.

The designers of said products were not informed, except when a customer ordered the part. That lead to unhappy designers, unwilling to re-engineer their catalog. Imagine going through each CAD model, adjusting dimensions, leading to a cascade of other changes and test prints. In other words, spend time to re-engineer and spend money on trial fitment. For a proven product. That was a firm "No!" from many.

Only designers can say "print the thing anyway, it is a test print". 3D prints for third party customers must pass all print criteria. With the spec change, many designs were out of specification. So no print for them and unhappy third parties

Someone at Shapeways chose poorly. Shapeways wrote that they were switching to a new printer because the old printers were wearing out. In my view, it was a terrible idea to reduce print quality. Keep it the same or improve it.

There were likely other issues to cause bankruptcy, but an interruption in revenue stream is not helpful

Bee

July 8

Hi Ian

Thank you for clarifying. No one is disputing your input. Clearly, one wheel is live to the axle, else the circuit would have an open / would not function.

To my understanding, the specification is being confirmed internally, as there may be a technical glitch in the firmament.

We will sort this, never fear!

Bee

July 8

10 hours ago, moawkwrd said:

At this viewing distance, it looks fine. If anything, like a well used, well worn wagon.

Bee

July 7

@Deem

The return crank must be properly positioned for the oil pump rods to not kink, fatigue and snap.

When it comes to this positioning, Atom has written extensively about the task. Based on what he has written, it seems like there is a bit of finesse required and that it is tricky to get correct. Fortunately for me, this didn't exist for my railway of choice, so I need not worry about it. But you do.

Do not just replace the part. Make sure to get the return crank positioned just so, as well.

Bee

July 7

Hi Dukedog

Much bigger fiddle yard. Can't have too much fiddle yard!

Still room for one or two industries for your freight service, if industrial switching is your interest.

The scissors double cross-over is kept as its own feature, instead of buried in a complex interlocking. Your change will preserve the complexity of working trains and managing conflicts at the crossover. Lots of engagement there

Here is where your insulated rail joiners should go. The four tracks that come off of the scissors double crossover should be isolated at each end. Your image was too small for two fushia lines at the scissors double crossover, so one line for two tracks will have to do. Both tracks are insulated, even though only one fushia line is present.

These four isolated tracks will have the auto-reverser feed. Yet the scissors double crossover itself and remainder of track can all be fixed polarity.

You can never have back to back auto-reverser tracks. So the scissors double crossover should be that fixed polarity section in between the two auto-reversed sections on the route your train takes. There is a complexity in wiring the frogs itself, in that the frog should not itself be on an auto reverser, but work off your switch machine. This preventing back to back auto reversers for longer locomotives bridging two auto reversers.

I think this is a definitely improved layout. It preserves the features you originally sought with a bigger fiddle yard.

Any thoughts of making that fiddle yard double ended?

Bee

July 7

Electricals

The next challenge was how to bring power from one rail, through the motor and then back to the other rail. Enough with the art of a chimney door, determine how to power the motor.

OO Twin Sisters is just over 49 mm long and roughly 33 mm from front to rear wheel contact points. With such a short locomotive, I want all wheel pickup.

A commercial part exists to bring power from the metal tire, across the plastic insulating wheel, to the metal axle, but this demands the live/insulated wheel axle regime. I have but three axles. No matter how I distribute this commercially available part, one side of the locomotive may have two pickups, while the other side of the locomotive will be limited to one. Or simply one on each side, skipping one axle entirely. That is a recipe for stalling on track, as Twin Sisters will lose connection to electrical power.

I measured the pickup foil on an existing model and found it to be 0.08mm. Sheets of 0.08 mm beryllium copper foil are readily available in consumer quantities. Beryllium copper has a higher mechanical yield than pure copper, making it more suitable for springs, while retaining the vast bulk of the conductivity of pure copper.

There will be two main bus bars down the length of Twin Sisters. Each bus bar has three fingers which contact the back of the metal tire of the wheel at top. As I intend DC¹, a simple wire from each bus bar is brought to the motor. The circuit is complete.

While the bus bar is inside the cart, the fingers will go through slots to the outside of the cart. A dimple plier will be used to form a hemispherical bead on each beryllium copper finger. The bead will be held against the tire by spring pressure. As the 1st and 3rd axles shift side to side to accommodate 2nd radius (438mm) curves, the fingers can either follow the wheel out or tuck completely back into pockets formed into the sides of the cart. The fingers will not interfere with the full range of side to side travel of the axles.

Will the fingers be noticeable and obvious?

Even if you know where to look, and have the benefit of the contrasting colors of a CAD model, the pickup fingers are not obvious when the complete locomotive is presented Once camouflaging paint is applied, the fingers may disappear altogether.

With the proposed model now complete, I can proceed to parts ordering. Obviously, some features will need revision due to actual dimensions, instead of estimated dimensions on some parts once they arrive. Artistic rivets and flanges will be definitely added, whilst coving up those flathead screws in the top of the boiler.

While the design is far from complete, the proposed model is most definitely feasible. I can get power to a motor. The gearbox is duck soup simple. The mechanical parts are largely purchased Romford / Markits components. The crosshead and crosshead rods are commercially available stock. It all seems to fit together without worry.

I think its time to commit!

Bee

¹ For the foreseeable future. The boiler that does not have a motor is completely empty. It could readily fit a decoder and small keep alive. Vent heat right on up through the chimney. But for now, DC it is.

July 7

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384829275391

It includes a small keep alive to eliminate flicker. Nice!

It is my understanding that a keep alive must have a bridge rectifier to properly charge. The seller also claims that it works on DC, which in my view lends further support for a bridge rectifier.

In any event, thank you Ian for providing the information to us. It is appreciated.

Is your issue now resolved or are there further difficulties?

Bee

July 6

If it was missing from the box, new from Hornby, just contact them. Customer Service will take care of this problem.

Bee

July 5

Hi Ian

If you wouldn't mind, would you provide us with the link to the kit you purchased? If not the link, the name of the kit?

That information may prove quite helpful to us, so that we can better help you. We will know and understand exactly what you have. Makes our task easier.

Further, a future enthusiast may have the same kit, with similar issues, and so just find the solution.

Thanks in advance Ian.

Bee

July 5

Deem

High Voltage Spikes.

Reports on this very forum of up to 3x expected voltage In voltage spikes.

Sudden death as components let all the magic smoke out.

Bee

July 5

The expected "season" has been removed from the ordering page.

https://uk.hornby.com/products/lmr-coach-pack-wellington-globe-queen-adelaides-coach-era-1-r40357

It has been my experience that this portends imminent arrival.

When this was first announced in Jan 2023, the arrival date was Summer 2023, which shifted nearly immediately to Summer 2024. Clerical error?

In July 2023, it moved to the Spring of 2024.

In January this year, it was back to Summer 2024.

In April 2024, it shifted all the way to Winter 24/25.

Whew.

After all that, its the original date ignoring the clerical error.

In any event, its nearly here??

Bee

July 4

With Martyn's stated strategy of announcing closer to selling, a status page may be obviated.

Bee

July 4

We are in agreement Three Link.

While the forum is a great place to exchange ideas, sometimes communication can be stilted. Its all too easy to be misunderstood or, especially in my case, communicate poorly.

Thank you for continuing the conversation.

Here is a major update to the CAD model of Twin Sisters. I have been unhappy with the Markits crosshead. Once I made the pistons and cylinders to scale, the Markits part just looks too big

I decided to make my own. Firstly, because the interference with the connecting rod and the crosshead bars forced an unnecessary compromise. They were coplanar and they banged into each other. Secondly, because I could make a smaller one. I will use 0.5 mm rod for the crosshead bars and 1.5mm OD tube for the crosshead itself. This will provide a rattle fit of 0.008" on all sides of the crosshead rods. If I attempt 1.0mm OD tube, the buildup of tolerance would likely bind the entire assembly.

I've added in the support for the crosshead rods, extending the cylinder support plate to do so. This makes mechanical sense, as the lower rod support would not be mounted on a flimsy fender, but rather held on the same plate to retain crosshead rod integrity.

Further, the connecting rod is out of plane from the crosshead, just as Stephenson did, eliminating any compromise in support.

I am a much happier camper!

Bee

July 4

Fair Point NTP.

I certainly do not know what Ian bought or how it is configured.

He did state the LEDs lit when batteries applied. Based on the kind of responses Ian provided, I am unsure that he acknowledged polarity in application. Hence why I assumed the rectifier was on the strip. But yes, bad assumption

Bee

July 4

@Ian-1301567Precisely!!

July 4

Bridge rectifier is likely a part of the LED strip Ian.

It is entirely possible, given that the live/insulated axle wheel configuration was unknown, that you simply have one axle non-reversed as required. That power flows from A to A, not from A to B.

Bee

July 4

Hello Ian

Slow down!

Suppose two metal wheels with a metal axle was in place. That would be a dead short. Like putting a wire from one rail to the other.

Consequently, one wheel must be insulated from the rail, and one must not. In this way, power comes from rail A, through the wheel and to the axle. That is where your spring is.

After coming down from the led strip, it goes to ANOTHER axle. From there to the wheel and down to rail B.

It will not do to have power come up from rail A and down to rail A. Power must flow from A to B. So of the two axles, the live wheel must be on opposite sides.

You can do this sir. Slow down. Think about what is happening and you will see it.

Bee

July 4

Without Twin Sisters, the LMR would have been grossly delayed. I did not mean to diminish it. Heck, I'm building it because I admire it.

In mentioning Stanier, the implication was that those early pioneers were the giants, inventing an industry from whole cloth. Stanier could not improve a design that did not exist.

The early pioneers were concerned with efficiency and hence the reason why the fuel was weighed both before and after their run at Rainhill. Indeed, why Stephenson and Wood used a Dynamometer (see my yellow avatar Stephenson's Dynamometer) to measure retarding friction. Twin Sisters was inefficient, as was noted by the LMR. It was broken up December 1831, 15 months after Opening, unsuitable for nearly any operation.

Bee

July 4

Ian

You need a complete circuit. Power must come from one rail, flow through all the components including the LEDs and down to the other rail.

When testing for continuity, you are measuring resistance. Ohms of resistance. If you measure 0 ohms, that means no resistance or a good connection. If there is a large resistance, electricity will not flow, that would be bad.

Check. Wheel to axle. Axle to internal LED connections. Etc Step by step

Bee

July 4

Hi Dukedog

Thank you for separating out the layers. It helps me to understand what is presented.

What follows is merely an opinion from the cheap seats, the ones all the way in the back. Feel free to utterly disregard anything I offer. This is just what I observe.

The top and bottom layers have no interchange. Thats okay, of course. It is your layout. Yet the top layer offers little more beyond that which the bottom layer already provides. When we ignore the interior track work, both are two large loops. If you want to watch trains go by, set the point work to non-diverging on the bottom layer and let them run.

All of the interactive play is in the bottom layer. The lazy 8 track, with two back to back Y points (why not double slip?) offers the ability to send the trains here and there. I like that a lot. It offers nice potential. Scheduling and decision making in the offing.

Placing the double cross-over right within the context of the wye offers an interesting interchange. As you have pointed out yourself, the tracks don't actually join there, the points are over layed in software. Before committing to actual track, I'd make sure that it really does connect properly. If you run into difficulty, then move the double cross over elsewhere on the loop. It is a feature all on its own and provides its own interactive nature. Don't lose it, perhaps move it.

The three track yard is an industry. You need a second yard somewhere else, providing your freight trains something to do. They pick up in yard A and move it to yard B. You set the route and perform the delivery. Interacting with the layout instead of watching trains go by. Along those lines, you have plenty of room for two passenger terminals, to increase the interaction.

Some things I am not overjoyed with (the part you get to freely ignore).

1)No storage / fiddle yard? You must intend on keeping extra rolling stock and locomotives off layout, perhaps in a cabinet. Make sure that the room layout includes that cabinet space and reasonable (for you) access to the cabinet.

2) The top layer obstructs the view of the interactive bottom layer. If it were me, and it decidedly is not, I would entirely skip the top layer. Needless extra work for little extra play. If you really want two layers, connect via inclines and make sure you can still see the bottom layer to interact with it.

3) Derailments happen. Derailments in the center of the layout are going to be reasonably hard to reach. Count on the derailment to occur in the least accessible portion. May I ask the scale? N, TT, OO or O? What size is the square on your grid?

4) I assumed OO and that the grid squares are 50mm. A hilariously bad idea. But in doing so, realized that some of the curves appear below R2 or 438 mm. Most kit is targeted at a radius of 438 mm. If you intend longer stock , you need to relax those curves, or run small locomotives

5) the track separation between tracks appears less than recommended. Long stock will over hang and collide with long stock on the other track in those curves.

6) Once you have a sense of the style and interaction within the layout, make sure that all the pieces connect without violation, within the software. Remember the 6 P's of Engineering: Prior planning prevents poor performance. [joke: there are only 5, proving the point]

That's entirely too much. I will stop now.

Bee

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