What About The Bee

Hi JJ SWMBO could not stop laughing at my appearance in normal attire and a top hat! She obviously knows I have it, size 7⅜ if you please, but the incongruity of attire was amusing her. I tried to explain the scientific nature of the experiment, but SWMBO wasn't having it. Sigh, the indignity I put up with! There will be no image of my face on the internet, due to operational security concerns. I do recognize your request however JJ, would an image from the back be sufficient? Bee SWMBO: In yachting circles, sometimes referred to as "The Admiral". SWMBO means: She Who Must Be Obeyed! You may be the captain of this vessel lad, but The Admiral out ranks you!

Since we are very early in the Hornby process for Saloon No. 2, I thought to plant a seed in Mr. Kohler's imagination! So I sent him an email, stating 'ubiquitous queen wave' and a 4mm Queen Adelaide in the forward glass compartment. I did ask his intentions His response was vague, as you would expect, but he did say "interesting thought". So the seed has been planted, perhaps it will flourish! Bee

Women in the tender or on the footplate: Per RGH Thomas: Miss Kemble's ride resulted in Board of Directors issuing orders, that no one was to ride in tenders or on footplate except enginemen or Directors. All presumably male. The Panorama therefore, has a problem. HATS: Before a proper discussion of top hats can occur, it should be put into context. I surveyed every period image I know of. There are three types of individuals shown. Enginemen, Riding Guards and Stationary Guards on right of way. If I could not observe the type of hat, primarily from lack of detail, the individual does not appear in this survey. All guards wore top hats, without fail. It appears part of the uniform. Riding Guards only appear on first class trains, never on luggage or second class trains. 19 of 19 wore top hats. Stationary Guards are always depicted giving arm gestures, so they can always be selected. 7 of 7 wore top hats. Look at this image of Olive Mount and see the Stationary Guards Enginemen have only 27 of 86 depicted in top hats. These numbers are weighted heavily FOR tophats due to Rainhill Trials and Opening Day images. Discounting those images brings top hat crew down considerably to 9 of 68 in top hats. Before we examine the practicality of hat wearing, we must understand that most of the imagery relates to the early days of the LMR, not the years just before consolidation. In later years, express Royal Mail permitted a top speed of 40 mph. Yet in the early years, it was far, far slower. The average speed was 16 mph for first class, 8 mph for everything else. This was measured by arrival time less departure time. The rules changed considerably in the early days, but Stephenson was concerned about rail breakage and wear and tear on the locomotives. When we consider even express stopped in Parkside, higher speeds could be expected elsewhere. The highest speeds could be expected on the down hill inclined planes. Indeed, From LMR Regulations, we have Rule 27: That no engine, either with or without passengers, coals, goods or luggage [freight], shall go down any of the inclined planes at at greater speed than 20 to 25 miles per hour..... Now the fashion of wearing top hats depicted in films shows the top hat perched high on the skull. That would easily be blown off in a breeze. The images in which we have detail (and a good observer like Ackermann), the top hat is worn virtually to the Guards ears. Now it just so happens that I own a beautiful top hat, my hat size measured appropriately. This isn't a costume, rather, it is the genuine article. When I jam it on my head, my ears touch the brim, exactly as depicted. It also happens that today is very blustery and quite windy. Data at the government bouy nearby shows sustained winds at 25.2 mph(21 knots) and gusts to 32 mph(27 knots). Much to the amusement of my neighbors, I stood outside wearing my top hat. It never even shifted. Quite secure on my head. I think top hats quite feasible, particularly as the Guard could grab onto his hat on the downhill inclined planes. Not that it was particularly needed, per experiment. Cheers! Bee

@LT&SR_NSE The Booth illustrated carriage could very well be 2nd class instead of first. To use American slang, I'm not about to die on that hill! Cheers Bee

@ThreeLink Quite the discovery for me, I have never seen that particular image before. This from a fellow enchanted with the LMR for a very long time. For me, it was an exciting moment! The roof line looks all the world like leather or oil cloth stretched over a metal frame. Dave Engel at Engel's Coach Shop shows how it is done. One word of caution about the panorama. It appears to be a collection of derivative images. The Lacey & Allen consist is pulled by Rocket, fair enough. Rocket has a generation 3 tender. Still not an issue. There are female passengers standing in the tender. Okay, that's a problem. Long dresses, coal and being in the way of the fireman might prove cumbersome. These types of issues tell me the artist did not view the railway first hand. The consist on the far right is San Pareil pulling two chaldrons and a sheep wagon. Where's the tender? Bee

While looking for data about fishbelly rail manufacture, I encountered this "panorama" of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. The museum states the panorama was made before 1835, so definitely a period image It is essentially a series of images on a long reel. Why not I said. As I was looking at the images, I noticed the Duke of Wellington's carriage depicted on the line on Opening Day. Quite a distinctive one that and certainly fodder for Hornby. The Duke's carriage will be for another day. As I continued scanning the panorama I noticed this That red carriage behind the standard 1st class carriage in yellow. There it is. Fantastic! The Lacey & Allen in consist. We have a single passenger and a guard seated in the rear. The other two known images do not show people. Unknown artist. Pre 1835. For the record, here are the other known images. First depicted by Booth, top row, middle. 1830 Then by Ackermann, middle row, right. 1831 Bee

I've received written confirmation of the carriages to be included in R30090 L&MR, Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack - Era 1 Customer Care has informed me that the pack includes "Traveller" and "Huskisson". Customer Care also notes that it includes "an additional carriage". That additional carriage is specifically the unusual 1st Class carriage illustrated in Henry Booth's book of 1830. Simon Kohler has confirmed this in a different email. I'm merely recording this for other customers who may have the same questions Cheers! Bee

+1. The saloon is a custom designed carriage. Whilst it may have its roots in a 1st class carriage, the entirety of the saloon is a bespoke effort. Just as a cobbler might want to know the size of the royal feet, I would think the royal carriage maker would want to know how how tall Adelaide was before designing a custom sleeping compartment. The undercarriage was absolutely adjusted in length for the front compartment, why not for the rear sleeping compartment? Which leads me into these questions. 1) Is this the first sleeping compartment for British trains, or were other sleepers about? None on the LMR that I know of, but that was a short run. 2) What locomotive pulled the saloon? I'd imagine the honor of being selected for the royal train caused just a tiny bit of competition in the engine house. 3) What carriages, beyond the saloon, were in consist? Where in consist was the saloon?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armagh_rail_disaster Under the heading: Circumstances of the accident, see Note 2: "From the details given in the accident report, the excursion train engine appears to be one of the GNRI's H class" ÷÷÷÷ Imagery of the locomotive is widely available on the internet. I will leave it to those far more knowledgeable to confirm or deny the "H class" designation. Bee

Hi ThreeLink Thank you for clarifying the location of the bed. I can only examine photographs and suffer from an inability to inspect it first hand. Some day! The extension into the boot was something I did not anticipate. I noticed the hatch, but assumed Her Majesty traveled feet first and thus the hatch opened into the middle compartment. Placing Her Majesty's feet into the boot makes sense. I just didn't realize her feet were so large*. No need for a luggage boot anyway. Her Majesty would have personal staff and they would likely travel with her in other carriages. The luggage would simply go with staff. The sleeping compartment shows the closeness of the 4 inside seating arrangements. The leg well is narrow when looking at the seat depth. Even with the most sumptuous of cushions, the compartment appears 5ish feet long. The internet tells me the average height of a woman in the 1800s hovers around 5'2". The extra length into the boot was required! I wonder if Hornby will include a fine scale Adelaide in the pack? Her Majesty can ride about in the front compartment of the saloon, giving the ubiquitous 'queen wave'. Bee *a joke, obviously. Meant respectfully. I'm not about to insult British institutions.

Hail Caesar! I do appreciate that tip. After the first time I had my text swallowed by the void, I learned to type my text in another tool and only approach the Hornby forum with my text under control elsewhere. Copy + paste is my friend! So I can readily hunt through my text for potential issues. In one case, I had placed American slang for haphazardly. Hornby rejected my post repeatedly (no hints at what the banned word might be) until it finally dawned on me that the word I used for haphazardly was English slang for, well, something else. Hornby's filter became immediately happy. The subtle differences make the guessing very hard indeed. If I could see the banned word, I'd have no issue at all. Crafting phrases that say the same thing, the use of synonyms would easily get me past the barrier. I really do want to comply with not only just the exact words, but the intent and spirit of Hornby's desire for a friendly environment. Bee PS At one point in my life, I had several roman coins with Quinctilius' countermark struck on them.

When I inadvertently meander across the line, using what appear to be innocuous words, here is the only thing visible 504 Gateway error No post, no yellow marks. Zip. If I attempt to go back to the previous page, which includes the box where my text would go, I find my text is vaporized. I cannot go forward from the 504 error and refreshing the page has no effect. Result: total guess work. I wish it did function as you guys tell me, I would appreciate knowing!! Samsung Galaxy S9. Android operating system. For the IT guys.

@GS Permit me to ask then, which two of the three illustrated does ShredderLive receive? I will assume that the selection is from among those illustrated, is that too bold an assertion? I agree with the others, this isn't malicious. I am not trying to put you on the spot either. The occasional error by Hornby causes confusion and apparent dismay. I'd like to know which carriages I receive on R30090 beyond the Booth carriage. Can I rely on the images? The answer is....maybe. Bee

Hello 37Lover I will attribute this misunderstanding to the great aluminum/aluminium debate. I took umbrage when you meant it the other way around. A "British-ism" which went right over my head. I will say that I constructed over a dozen messages in response, but held off because none of those messages were polite, in even the slightest degree. Thank you for settling this like a gentleman. It is appreciated Bee

Hello Alberto Thank you for continuing to share your models. I did not see any rules broken. We are told that mentioning other manufacturer's product is acceptable when the commentary is positive. Your comments are perfectly acceptable to me. Keep going! Bee

37Lover said to Patricia: "I had to read your post a few times to try and understand your complaint, unlike WATB." Why did you feel it necessary to add that personal attack? I should really like to hear your rationale 37Lover. I did take the time to understand Patricia's complaint and provided appropriate, calm and rational advice.

Sometimes, my posts are rejected for use of a banned word. [504 gateway] Now with the list of banned words not published, I am forced to guess which word is causing the issue. This is then compounded by the fact that I am not British and certain words that are banned have no such definition or usage on this side of the pond. I submitted "Her Majesty's Saloon" 3× before I stumbled onto the word needing change. I read, re-read and re-read, trying to guess what the word might be. Painful. Add in some images, yikes!! If the moderators could be persuaded to send the "list" to cognizant adults, I think this would help. I do not want to publish banned words and I have no intention of debating which words are banned. I just would like to know what they are, so I can avoid them without agony!! Bee

In Hornby's 2023 range launch, you may have noticed R40357 "L&MR Coach Pack, Wellington, Globe & Queen Adelaide's Coach". The first photograph is of Globe and Wellington, which are standard 1st class carriages. You are to be forgiven if you didn't scroll to the second image. The carriage presented in the second image isn't the standard LMR 1st class carriage by that name. No it is not! The little brown carriage in the second image is Queen Adelaide's personal carriage, made especially for her in 1842. A royal train carriage is more properly termed "saloon". The Queen, painted in 1832, some time after ascension. The saloon has attracted interest for quite some time. This old composite postcard shows Her Majesty and the saloon. The front of the saloon is on the right. There are three compartments and a small area for luggage in the rear. The center compartment is for seated travel, what the LMR would call "4 inside", 2 facing front, 2 to the rear, legs in the center. The sumptuous furnishings are far beyond standard LMR 1st or even Royal Mail 4 inside. Yet the seating arrangement is consistent with the phrase, 4 inside. I believe the rear compartment is for sleeping. The compartment could be arranged such that Her Majesty could nap. Some external images show long curtains in the rear compartment, which are also in this image. Long bed curtains are consistent with darkness. I might be wrong here and the bed was made up in the center compartment. The front compartment is just two front facing seats, with a glass wall. I think this might be for Queen Adelaide to be viewed by the public as she rolled on by. I can picture her doing the ubiquitous 'queen wave' from inside, to her adoring public. The front buffer beam shows the rich appointment as it is carved and pin striped. That will be a difficult challenge for Hornby. The front, gilded and carved flourishes are quite a noticable feature and yet another challenge for Hornby. Even the door artwork is complicated! Given that this saloon exists at the museum, Hornby will have every opportunity to examine this saloon in detail and as often as they would like. Hornby should do themselves proud. I pre-ordered R40257 within 10 minutes of range launch. I recognized that saloon, and I ordered instantly. Now I cannot state that Queen Adelaide's carriage ever was on the LMR. It did exist during the LMR's time frame of existence but was for a different railway. Yet the saloon is a preserved period carriage and this is my layout. So it will be making appearances. The 1st class carriages Globe and Wellington are a bonus, but frankly, I would have paid the asking price, even without them. A royal carriage on my layout! Bee

@37Lover Hi there 👋 I sometimes go back over my posts to look for spelling errors and grammatical errors. I am fussed about the details, so when I note a misspelled word, I simply edit the post without notice. This enhances the reader's experience, since they focus on flow of, not the mechanics of, a sentence. Occasionally, factual errors creep in, so I may edit the response, but I will note the edit for the readers. I like to own my mistakes. They are mine, afterall. Perhaps you may have noticed an error? Bee

I would hasten to add: The 1st class carriage Adelaide noted above was of the standard design. 6 inside. Yellow. In Hornby R40372, it is Queen Adelaide's personal carriage. Not to be confused with the standard 1st class carriage run on the LMR. May I say that R40372 was in my basket within 10 minutes after range launch. That was the easiest pick ever!! The price for that one carriage, if you do the maths, is much higher than any of the others. I hope that portends a match to Her Majesty's actual carriage in the museum, and a highly detailed one at that. I do not know that Queen Adelaide's personal carriage ever traveled on the LMR, but it is a period carriage and it's my layout!! Bee Edit: The LMR Queen Adelaide eponymous carriage was NOT standard!! Please read about it here: LMR Queen Adelaide carriage; Not to be confused with Her Majesty's Saloon :: Hornby Hobbies

@LT&SR_NSE The nominal 1st class carriage seats 6 inside each compartment in two facing rows. There are 3 compartments. They all look about like this Call it the standard design. This seating arrangement was termed "six inside". The passengers show the seating arrangement. Then we come to the outliers. The LMR did not have many of the Royal Mail carriages. Not only was the train a pure express, the seating was "four inside". Given the carriages were of relatively the same width, the difference can be compared to business vs first class seating on airlines. Re: Lacey & Allen (L&A) While researching the actual carriage list, I found that Mr. Anthony Dawson had covered L&A in his recent book. L&A were the carriage makers who created it, and Henry Booth had it illustrated for his book, published in 1830. Mr. Dawson states 4 inside. I'm not so certain, it could be 6 inside. Ackermann's period prints include a pictorial record of that carriage, but it is very much derivative of Booth. There are no other images I am aware of. L&A must have seemed very familiar to the upper crust in Liverpool and Manchester. It is a horse carriage after all. The standard carriage was the strange one!! Yet 200 years on, with literally dozens of images to examine, the strange one is the L&A. Given Hornby's recent history, the L&A will appear, but only in a train pack! I'm happy you are enjoying the details. This is a significant part of my modeling experience and am simply sharing! Bee

The previous message details the Hornby selection 1st class carriages. This post will provide information regarding actual known LMR 1st class carriages. If the carriage is illustrated in a period illustration or mentioned in writing, it becomes part of this list. Adelaide (Queen) Ariel Aurora Auxilium Booth Early 1st Class* Chinese Liverpool** Clarence Conservative Croxteth Delight Despatch Duchess of Kent Earl of Wilton Experience Fair Trader Fly Globe Greyhound Harlequin Huskisson Lacey & Allen Carriage*** Lark London Lord Derby Marquis of Stafford Melbourne Reformer Royal Mail**** Sir Robert Peel Sovereign Stanley Sylph Times Traveller Treasurer Velocipede Victory Wellington William (King/Royal) Zephyra ÷÷÷÷÷ Which name isn't on this list? Renown R3810 Acceptable, as no preserved list exists. Renown could have existed, so it is fine to have a bit of artistic license ÷÷÷÷÷ *1st class on the basis that sprung buffers were present in imagery and per Booth, sprung buffers only present on first class **1st class based on color of carriage, glazed windows and shown coupled to nominal first class in Ackerman prints ***This is the very strange horse carriage body mounted to a railway undercarriage, as shown by Booth. Mr. Anthony Dawson states that this is a "4 inside" carriage, just as Royal Mail was 4 inside. The premium for 4 inside, vs 6 inside seating was 1 shilling. ****4 inside

You asked about shunting and turntables in the Olive Mount Cutting. Wood "Practical Treatise..", 1838 provides extraordinary information about LMR points and railway turntables in general. A detailed track plan of the LMR has eluded me. We do know, in broad stroke, much of that plan due to early Ordnance Surveys. Yet in detail, there is a great unknown. While it is possible that turntables and or points could be in the Olive Mount cutting, the answer simply is, I do not know. A fantastic resource is Fitzgerald "Liverpool Road Station, Manchester An historical and architectural survey" 1980. The entirety of the track plan at the eastern terminus is given. My count is 48 turntables in the terminal! That is no typographical error, forty eight turntables. I truly wish this type of resource was available for the remainder of the railway. I am hopeful that LMR corporate surveys and track plans were preserved and will someday be published. The Olive Mount cutting will likely not appear on my layout. Impressive an engineering feat as it was, it simply does not lend itself well to a model. The real cutting in 1832 was (up to) 70 feet deep and only 20 feet wide. Double track, single working. In OO, that's nearly a foot deep and only 3⅛" (80mm) wide. A wonderful view of the top of the cutting and no train spotting. Maybe it would be good for an on board camera. A derailment would be disastrous!! But for the period illustrators, the cutting was spectacular. The soaring majestic walls and the observer in the base of an extremely narrow canyon. Ackermann, as an experienced publisher, recognized the economic value of the LMR images. Multiple editions were published and variation among editions do exist. The image above appears in the first edition. While this edition illustrates a passenger consist of 1st class carriages, later editions show a 2nd class carriages. With two guards present, we can observe what you theorized, and may I say, spot on. Both guards are seated forward. This would permit relatively easy communication. The guard in the rear would always have the guard in front in view. Likewise, the guard in front would have the engineer and fireman always in view. When the brakes were needed, the communication from the engineer to the guard in the rear would be relatively fast. A rearward facing rear guard could be day dreaming and completely miss his order. While both the Ackermann and Walker prints of the cutting appear very early, they are not derivative images. It is hard to understand why Walker would illustrate that carriage backwards. But he did, showing us that view of the brake handle in elevation. Thank you, James Walker! Bee

Hello Alberto If it is deep enough, snow should cause temporary speed restrictions on the network. I do hope your engineers are following the restrictions. I like the new title sequence, which shows the movie projector. Evocative! Bee

I found an online calculator which purports to convert monetary amounts into values for the year 2000. http://www.concertina.com/calculator/ Upon entering 20 shillings for 1832, I was informed that this is equivalent to £605.81 in the year 2000. An equivalent fare may be Amtrak, which offers to transport your automobile from Washington DC to Orlando, Florida for £167.92 ($208). This is a distance 1363 km (847 miles).