Testing of Signals at Start Up of RM - Faults Found

[St1ngr4y]

I'll just add one thought to your question for now. If it was my layout, I would do it the other way around - i.e. have the signals react to the points settings, instead of having the signals change the points.

Ray

This is what I seem unable to do Ray. Signals alter points but not the other way around. I have clearly intruded where I shouldn't be. I'll leave you both to it. R-

This is something I can't remember trying before. I just did, and I can confirm your findings - specifying signals to change on the switch of a point doesn't seem to work. If it had been only the actual signals on the layout which didn't work, I would have put it down to those other problems we are having with the signals. But in this case the signal icons on the diagram don't change either.

Ray

[RB51]

Kind of you to come back on this Ray. I only carried out point switching using signals because I couldn't get signals to alter when I changed the points. According to Mark at Train Tech - they should. R-

[St1ngr4y]

Kind of you to come back on this Ray. I only carried out point switching using signals because I couldn't get signals to alter when I changed the points. According to Mark at Train Tech - they should. R-

Perhaps you should report this as a problem to HRMS through the RM system.

Ray

[RB51]

I am going to get a DS3 and two DS4's next week. So I will set them up and see what happens. After that I will post the outcome on here [which will no doubt be the same as yours and PJ's] and then contact HRMS. R-

 

EDIT: Sorry, that should be a DS1 and two DS4's. R-

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Roger

 

I am sorry for any misunderstanding, your questions are as valid as anyones, it is amazing was signal problems can cause... at least you were only 'miffed'. Just joking trying to get us back on track. ;o)

 

Speaking for myself, I will not be bringing up 'down the line' signal issues until the current problems are sorted and we can move on knowing these current issues are not in any way triggering the more complex ones. HRMS will be pleased I am sure.

 

I have spent several hours today testing and running a program in RM, setting signals Red as the loco passes a signal. Keeping it just to the loco and only running at 20mph so as to check every signal change. I wasn't going to add this at this time but as I have got this far I may as well. First run of the program, only some signals change, not all. Reset all signals back to where they were when the program starts and run again. Result, same again, some signals change as requested some don't, but not always the same signals fail to change.

 

This issue 'in programs' is the same issue when starting RM. Some signals set, some don't, not always the same signals. Had we not found the problem at start up and only found it here, then reported the issue to HRMS, they could go round in circles looking for the problem in programs and not find it as it is startig much sooner when RM starts and sets the signals. AlI I am trying to say really, maybe not to clearly is, we now know the problem is apparent at start up, knowing that it makes sense to sort it at that point, in doing so it may fix the same issue in programs, these problems may cause conflicts with other items, we don't know. As there are so many problems, small as they all may be, it makes sense to suggest starting and fixing from the beginning.

 

[RB51]

Perhaps you should report this as a problem to HRMS through the RM system.

 

Hi Ray - just had a look at the log file to see what is happening with the point changes, primarily because everything has just started to take a long time [about forty seconds to change points, using signals] and noticed that RM is falling over here ....

 

16/09/15 17:08:30   Points to highlight: TPoint1:4  TPoint3:3  TPoint5:3  TPoint7:3

16/09/15 17:08:30   Couldn't find green point control button for TPoint1(2)

16/09/15 17:08:30   Couldn't find green point control button for TPoint1(3)

 

I suspect that adding physical signals to the layout may not solve this issue so will pass this to HRMS tonight.

 

R-

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, very interesting and illuminating I think. And it leads me to ask my third question again, not to solve down the line problems but to get a handle on the nature of it.  Did the down the line fusiliers occur consistently, or were they random to the extent that one of them occurred all the time or only some of the time?  Does that make sense.

 

What I'm thinking is, we have a single fault mechanism at play here.  If you ask RM to change a signal via a signal button, it works.  But if RM is required to change a signal, via an instruction in a program, whether one you've written separately or one contained in the setup for a point or other signal, or hopefully soon in an LD sensor setup, it only works sometimes.  Don't ask me why that should be so, but that's what I think it might be.

[RB51]

I think your question makes perfect sense Fishy, and is logic well worth exploring. My thoughts are that the more information that can be made available to HRMS the better the chances will be of them being able to solve the problem in a single hit. Well, maybe not a single hit, but you know what I mean. R-

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, very interesting and illuminating I think. And it leads me to ask my third question again, not to solve down the line problems but to get a handle on the nature of it.  Did the down the line fusiliers occur consistently, or were they random to the extent that one of them occurred all the time or only some of the time?  Does that make sense.

 

To clarify, none of the issues mentioned in the thread refer to any testing in 'back down the line' signal issues.

 

As stated, I have chose to wait till HRMS fixes the more immediate issues, the ones at start up and the ones in Programs. See below.

 

What I'm thinking is, we have a single fault mechanism at play here.  If you ask RM to change a signal via a signal button, it works.  But if RM is required to change a signal, via an instruction in a program, whether one you've written separately or one contained in the setup for a point or other signal, or hopefully soon in an LD sensor setup, it only works sometimes.  Don't ask me why that should be so, but that's what I think it might be.

 

I partly agree here Fishy. Here is what I am seeing at present.

 

1 - There is an issue at start up of RM, so this doesn't include programs, it also doesn't include pressing the signal icon on screen. This issue, with its random nature, some signals setting on start up and some not, and on re-start the same issue but different signals. As this issue is at the start of RM, it could be responsible for or partly responsible for the same happeing in programs so it makes it important, I think, to get this issue sorted first.

 

2 - Also very important, we know the signals work correctly, one at a time, clicking the icon on screen. But, this may not be the case from the first click of the icon as it needs to get the signal and the screen icon aspects in sync with each other.

 

3 - The program I am using was from a recording within RM. As some signals were not correct when starting RM I clicked every signal full sequence, R,Y,YY,G or G,R,Y,YY,G until I had the signals correct to start recording, for this test 2 signals start on Red and 3 start on Green. (Note we can only set signals in RM Layout design for Red or Green, Stop or Clear). This elimates the possible out of sync situation mentioned in the second sentence in part 2 above. The 2 Red signals on the loop were the signal for leaving the station, and the signal before it, protecting the block the signal is in, the other 3 are at start up stage vacant blocks so al signals start Green.

 

RM Record program was started, the Red station signal turns to Green to allow the loco to set off. As the loco passes this signal it turns back to red, as it passes the other signals they each turn to Red. Note there was one other signal change request that was to change the one behind the stationary train to Yellow after the loco had cleared the block completely, equivemnet to last carriage changing the previous signal to clear the block the loco was previous in confirming the block is now clear. Note, I am not using 'back down the line' for the loop, only clearing the Red as the loco on the program has to do the full loop and stop in the same place. This is a program change so that the Red signal is not Red when the train almost completes the loop and passes that signal, this is not programming signals back down the line which is done within a signal setup in RM latout plan.

 

There are other issues not reported at this stage in Programming, these were edited to clear them, Ray has had the same issues and at least one was reported to HRMS earlier in the year.

 

I have at this stage not used points to change signals, my concern was, rightly or wrongly, not to throw everything at RM at this stage, there are a numer of issues in Programs but, to me, it seemed logical to sort these initial problems first. If there are issues at 'start up' of RM and they are 'random' surely these should be fixed first then we can move forward knowing they are not there to cause issues with other items later.

 

Except for the random errors at start up it does appear, the signals are work correctly when changed by the icon on screen, the only other consideration is why are some out of sync initially but, this also could be caused by the random start up errors, when the main issue is solved it could very probably some the initial signal sequence situation. After that issue is solved it would appear that it is right to say, signals work by pressing the icon and the other issues are in programs, which include, signals, points, LD to come etc.

 

One final clarification for HRMS's benefit, prior to all re-starting of RM and running the test program, all signals have had the change 'back down the line' programming removed. So every signal is only programmed to the port within RM but not complicated in any way by having other instructions for more complex programming.

 

[Gazza-1]

Apologies if this has been discussed else where as I see the last posting date is 2015. But I see similar problems still with V1.74 when starting railmaster pro. I have a reasonably complicated points and signal configuration with home and distant signals, but despite making sure that the startup order does not trigger more than one signal per decoder in succession. I still get signals that don't get reset at start up, yet they still work when activated from the screen. When I initially did all this, I did it the only way I could make it work, and I wasn't that familiar with signalling. I was signalling from a signal and not points because I couldn't see how to set a distant light signal from a point as it only offered 2 colours. I have redesigned it all in railmaster in the last couple of weeks so that the points set the home signal and from the home signal it sets the distant signal. Although I did find something that didn't make any sense. I had to set a 2 aspect signal to 3, set the signalling up and change it back none in the signal type for it to work. I have hammered the signalling on the screen and it does seem to function better, but haven't a chance to hammer it on the layout to see what happens as I am redesigning signal gantry's and changing some of the wiring, just in case it makes a difference.

[96RAF]

9 years later and it likely has been discussed further.

Points and signals will only set at startup if given an order number in the trackplan design area. Any signal or point not given a start up number will not respond, although they will all work from the operating screen.