Using a QSI decoder with the Elite

[Dazzler down under]

Hi guys, as hornby dont do a 3801 i assume its ok to ask a question here as it regards running the loco on the elite. In short the elite wont program or run the loco, not even on address 3 and there are no lights or sounds, no power getting to the decoder or motor at all, loco runs on dc with light and sounds all day so theres nothing wrong with the loco im guessing the elite doesnt have enough power to operate this type of decoder, all i can see on the instructions is that its a quantum decoder and they "require more current to operate then standard dcc decoders and may not respond to the limited program track power from some command stations. Loco can also be programed in ops mode? Im guessing thats on the main layout. Ive tried this to no avail. Then it also says a power booster can be purchased that will allow programing on the program track on all dcc systems.

 

i know its a long shot, but ill ask anyway, is there anyone on this forum who has the Eureka 3801 or any 38 class loco by Eureka that you have managed to get running thru the elite without buying anything extra?

 

Also, once a loco is programed to an address on my system, will it maintain that adress across other systems, so if i take a loco with address 8 on my system to a mates and put it on his layout will it still be address 8 on his system without having to reprogram? I might know someone who i can take this 3801 to so he can program it on his system but not sure if it will work on mine when i get it home?

 

i have used google to try and solve the issue but im even more confused after doing so. If anyone wants to do a search for more info try searching  Eureka 3801 or quantum decoders. I have but couldnt find much help Its a bit over my head.

 

TIA everyone, any help is much appreciated.

[RB51]

Hi, Dazzler - I have had a good look around but there is little information on the decoder that I can find. There are folk on here more adept than I am though so perhaps they will have a look for you. I have to say the engine itself looks an absolute beauty. I hope you can get it running and it doesn't knock your lineside scenery down!

 

Usually when a decoder chip is coded it retains that address so you should be able to run it if your friend can code it for you. I don't think the Elite's power should be an issue.

 

Let's hope that someone who has one comes along and can help out on this query.

 

R-

[96RAF]

My initial,thought was it doesnt have a decoder installed and somehow its a dc sound loco but...

 

...despite the Elite manual saying you cant change an address on the main you can change CV1 which is the short address with the Elite.

 

Just ensure it is the only loco on the track or simply swap your Elite prog track onto the track outputs temporarily.

 

I havent tried it but you could maybe write to CV29 on the main to enable long addressing then CVs17/18 to give it a long address.

 

Failing that have a look at the post Chris started about robust CV reading where he uses a programming booster to great effect.

 

Take a look also at the new features in Elite,firmware update v1,43 as it talks to readback of CVs on the main and CV read and write has definitely been made more reliable.

[Chrissaf]

RAF is correct, the DCC address is held in the Decoder memory not the controller, so if your mate can change it to 8 on his system, then that address will still be valid when back at home on yours. However, if your system can't run it on address 3, then it is likely that it won't run on 8 either. Unless of course, your mates system corrects some other issue almost by accident that is preventing it working at home.

I would also concur with RAF about the Elite 1.43 firmware update. I found it has improved my CV reading / writing significantly of my Loksound V4 decoders (link below gives background to my issue and my solution to it - note the 1.43 firmware negates the need for my solution now).

https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/how-to-get-robustly-reliable-cv-readingwriting/?p=1

[Dazzler down under]

Ok, so after getting nothing on address 3 i managed to program the thing on the programing track and the loco now has an address, light works, all sound functions work, but loco only moves an inch at a time and only when i spin the dial, if i spin it back and fourth loco jutters along, but when dial is stationary at half throttle i only get light and sound but no movement. I tried it again on dc and everything works fine, lights, sound and movement, so all is good with the loco, its got lubrication ect...

 

its an excellent model it really is, its our most famous loco down here imo, the real loco has been preserved but has been out of action for years awaiting a new boiler, i think its due back next year at some stage.The  model is about 10 years old, at the time it cost a bomb, even by todays standards lol but worth it if i can get it running on dcc. Ive previously only run it on dc its been packed away in the box for a good 6-7 years during the week i put it on the layout and have tried to get it going. At least the programming issue is sorted, but now ive got another issue! My elite is running 1.3, if i wanted to update it how would i go about it?

[Chrissaf]

Dazzler

My elite is running 1.3, if i wanted to update it how would i go about it?

Download the 1.43 Firmware installer ZIP file from this link:

Hornby Elite Updates – Hornby Support

Once downloaded, unzip the file. I will warn you now the contents of the zip file are messy and quite daunting for the unwary. Assuming you are using Windows 7 or above, then ignore ALL the files in the ZIP except this one:

Elite_Updater_V1.43.exe

If not already on it, copy this file to your RM PC (your RM PC will already have the Elite driver installed - negating the need to be concerned with the bulk of the files in the ZIP file that relate to driver installation).

Now follow these instructions to the letter (these instruction are based on ones included in one of the additional files in the ZIP, but replicated and enhanced below for your convenience):

1. Unplug the power and the USB lead from your Elite.
2. Press and Hold the RED STOP button and keep it held whilst you connect just the power lead.
3. Keep holding the red stop button for 15 seconds (there will be no activity showing on the Elite LCD display - this is quite normal).
4. After 15 secs release the red stop button and wait a further 15 secs without doing anything at all to the Elite. You can use this wait period to fire up your RM PC if not already running. With your PC fully started (do not start up RM at this time), plug your Elite USB lead into the PC and wait a further 15 secs.
5. Go into 'Windows Device Manager' and take a mental note of the com port number the Elite driver is using. This will be listed in the ComPort section of the Device Manager list and is likely to be either Com 3 or Com 4, but do confirm this and don't make assumptions about what Com Port the Elite is using.
6. Now you can right click the file to run the Elite_Updater_V1.43.exe updater. Choose 'run as administrator' to be 'belt n braces'.
7. In the pull down ComPort dialogue box select the Com Port number identified in above step 5.
8. In the 'PC Type' box, this setting is a variable depending upon your PC hardware, but most users seem to find that 'PC Type 2' works for them, so I would advise trying that one first.
9. Click the 'Download' button. If the download takes about 2 to 4 minutes to complete, then it will be successful. If unsuccessful, try the other PC Type options till you find the one that works for you. Note: If you need to try one of the other PC Type options you MUST go back to step 1 of these instructions and start all over again from the very beginning.
10. When the installer is finished the Elite will reboot.
11. Recycle the Elite power and watch the display to see if it starts in 'Standard' or 'Classic' operating mode. If it starts in 'Standard' mode then you are good to go. If it starts in 'Classic' mode, change the operation mode back to 'Standard' as instructed in the Elite user guide manual (Page 67 of the user guide linked below).

 PS - Since your original Elite was version 1.3 there might be operational changes in the way you use the Elite with version 1.4x firmware installed. You can download the Elite 1.4x manual from this Hornby web site and compare the manual with your current one for differences - link below:

Hornby Elite Updates – Hornby Support

 EDIT: With a bit of luck on your side, 1.43 firmware may resolve your loco running issue.

[Dazzler down under]

Thats what im hoping, it looks like ive got a job to do on boxing day. Thanks for all that info Chris ill give it a shot, once i get the elite sorted ill wanna update to the new version of rm too but that sounds easy enough but first ill try this elite update i can see myself screwing it up ha but ill see how i go. Thanks again for all that info ill put it all to good use.

[Chrissaf]

Good luck with it. I won't be on the forum Christmas Day (I'm sure some on here will be pleased to hear that 😉) but will be back on Boxing Day....so any further questions then....please do ask.

.

PS - This latest RM update to 1.65 will auto detect and offer to update the next time you start RailMaster. Very minor updates do not auto update, but ones that have a new version number (as in this case) do.

[Dazzler down under]

Thanks Chris, I will attempt the update on Boxing Day and see how it goes, I hope it sorts this problem out otherwise I'm out of options.

[Fishmanoz]

You will certainly find a significant difference in the way the Elite operates with 1.4x, can't remember now but to do with how you swap between control knobs I think, and there is more functionality.  But I suspect it won't make any difference to how 3801 runs, hope I'm wrong.

 

One thing I would do is make sure track and wheels are spotlessly clean plus wheel backs and pickup tensions.  DC is less sensitive to this than DCC. 

[Rog RJ]

Have you thought of trying different speed step settings?  Reading CV 29 may give you a clue as to what you may need to adjust.

[96RAF]

Try here

http://www.qsisolutions.com/q1a-sound-files

 

I found an old oz forum topic pointing to the q1a files but if you look at the site in general it talks to Eureka sound locos, including this

http://media.wix.com/ugd/0f7119_b9bbe010cb084a5aa5d4caebcc30a883.pdf

Rob

[Dazzler down under]

Ill do theupdate today Fish and see how it goes, it likely wont make a difference but i need to do the update anyway, ill let everyone know how it goes.

.

the loco has hardly been run, maybe for 2-3 hours on dc at the most so wheels/pickups  are still spotless, im thinking of taking it to the shop next time im in there and getting them to run it on their dcc setup, see what happens, according to the instructions it should run on any dcc system out of the box so i read that as saying no cvs need to be adjusted. If it runs on the shop system then tne problem has to be something to do with the elite and this decoder surely. I havent experimented with CVs so far on any loco its a bit above my head at the moment maybe once i learn a bit more ill better understand how they work and how to read and change them, but im not at that level yet.

.

WOW, 468 pages of instructions for these decoders, thats incredible, what a novel.but lots of good info there RAF thanks for finding that for me, ive been thru the parts i think are relevent to my situation but i cant see any answers there, it just backs up what my manuel says about being able to run the train out of the box on any system..... apart from hornby by the look of things. Ill have a good tead thru it later and see if i can get my head around it. i think a phone call to eureka in the new year is in order, but ill try running it on another system first and see what happens.

.

Ive never seen anything like this, its not as if the loco is dead, lights and sound work and i can get the loco moving but have to continuously rotate the dial back and fourth, so long as the dial is moving so too does the loco, so to do a lap id have to stand there spinning the dial.

 

lots of these locos were made, there must be loads of people have them down here, problem is hardly anyone i speak to uses the hornby system. Maybe joining a club will help but it wouldnt feel right just turning up as a new mem then tell everyone ive got a bunch of problems for you to solve. Maybe join, contribute for a few months then let the cat out of the bag. It would be good for me anyway then i can learn off guys who know what there doing rather then go it alone. Might even get help on my layout down the track so it sounds like the go. Problem is everytime i go to an exibition  and speak to the older guys from clubs they dont really wanna know you, its almost like a secret society, maybe things change after you join?

anyway, thanks for taking the time to research this issue, even though we havent solved the problem yet i appreciate you guys taking the time to offer advice. 

[Dazzler down under]

Ok guys i havent forgotten about this thread, im still trying to get this loco to work but ive just been too busy and havent had time to mess around with it, ill get onto it today, ill try those cvs first job, failing that ill take it to a shop and run it on another dcc system. Im starting to think its the elite thats the issue considering its not a recommended control system. I think my choices will be,

 

A) replace the $150 sound decoder with the same $30 dcc concepts decoder  i use in my other hornby locos and sit the sound decoder on the shelf.

 

B) replace my hornby control system $300 and outlay a further $800 and upgrade to another control system. Although im happy with the elite/railmaster setup ill be disapointed if its not  compatible with all makes of decoders, i bought the elite thinking it was compatible with everything, i wish i had of done more research.

 

ill let everyone know how this ends up.

[Fishmanoz]

First thing Dazzler, do the Elite 1.43 update and see if anything changes. Then you could also do the RM update you mentioned and try running it with RM via the Elite and see how that goes.

 

Just because Elite isn't on a list of recommended controllers doesn't mean it is less likely to work, Elite is a fully functional DCC controller so should work.  It may simply not be on the recommended list because it was accidentally left out or wasn't considered.  Then running via RM is different to running with the Elite, so that is effectively 2 different controllers to try.

[96RAF]

I agree with Fishy.

 

The Elite is a fully compliant controller warranted by testing by the NMRA, so if there is an incompatability then it has to be the loco decoder. Even this could just be a configuration problem.

 

I would be taking the loco to a friend or club or dealer with a different dcc system to see if it will perform there before getting into the realms of changing systems. Yes I appreciate the OP may be remote from any of these aids but it could even be done by post.

[Dazzler down under]

So I've updated both the elite and RM and still no luck with the loco. Tried reading cvs but it's confusing with the new update. The elite is doing weird things, now there is a function on this 3801 that has a guys voice that says 'ID 21'. All sounds and light still work just can't move the loco unless the control knob is rotating. 

 

Looks like I'll have to try it on another system, not that it will mean much as I won't be able to change my system now. A change of decoder might be the only option I have. At least I will know where I stand with the elite though regarding compatibility issues. It's put me off my next purchase which was gonna be an XPT 7 car set, but I'm not gonna outlay the money to find I have the same issues.

[Dazzler down under]

I don't know if I like this new elite update either, how you use the functions has changed I can only use functions 1-9 and can't access 10+

[96RAF]

Middle button LHS Elite when pressed sequentialy moves you from F groups off to F group 1 (F0-9), then F group 2 (F10-19), then  F group 3 (F20-28).

 

In RM expand the throttle by clicking on the blue circle, then click the red triangle at throttle bottom to get more functions, then click on and drag the buttons up to see the rest. RM only gives you access to 25 functions which is a pest when the handy F25 aux on a TTS diesel is actually the 26th function (F0-F28 = 29 functions).

[Fishmanoz]

You say it still doesn't work with the Elite but what about with RM.

[Dazzler down under]

No , rail master is actually worse, can't even move the loco with rm. so after both updates there has been no change and accessing cvs on the elite looks complicated I had a crack but I can't make sense of it.

 

Ill take it to s shop to test out when I get the chance, I work 5 mins away from a shop but ive  finished work too early the last few weeks to go there when I get my next late day I'll get the loco over there for testing on another system. I'm not keen on putting an $800 loco in the post.

[Fishmanoz]

Interesting Dazzler.  Even though RM goes through the Elite, it is still a different DCC controller which just uses the Elite to transfer instructions to the track.  So that is 2 different systems it's not working on so a suggestion there just may be a decoder issue.

 

I can't speak in detail about other systems but I believe the Elite menus and instructions sets are typical of DCC controllers.  The menus are akin to a lower level machine language type system and so are not user friendly.  If you get the hang of some of the commands, you'll find the flow chart at the front of the manual (make sure you download the latest for 1.43) starts to make a little sense.  But then that's why people like RM as the program takes care of that stuff and gives you a much more friendly screen representation to do more advanced stuff like CV reading and writing.  Will CV writing work with RM?

[Dazzler down under]

I will checkout the cvs on rm today and see what happens. Is there a particular cv i should be looking for that might solve this control knob issue?

[Dazzler down under]

I think I will see if it works on another system and if it does I'll call Eureka and ask them if it should run using the elite, if they say yes then I'll take it to them to look at, if they say no then it looks like I'll have to change the decoder. I'll be pretty disheartened if I can run it with the elite tbh.

[Dazzler down under]

I've just fired off an email to the makers of the decoder asking if there are any known compatibility issues with the elite. I'll do the same with the makers of the loco and see what information I get back. I'll keep everyone posted.