Is a garage suitable for a permanent layout?

[PJ_model_trains]

@37Lover

A double garage is real advantage, but whether double or single I am sure you agree, the same applies, it must be watertight, secure, insulated, have an economical thermostatically controlled heating system and should be free from condensation. Allowing ventilation behind the insulation is also very important, the Building Regulations request a 25mm air gap, for movement of air into roof voids for the same reason. If impermiable layers are up against any cold surface without an air gap there is a risk of condensation occuring. 

 

As you show in your post 37Lover, you put a lot of thought into preparation. Planning the room, especially when it is not part of the main living areas in the home, it is equally as important, I think, as all the preparation work for the layout, prior to laying the first piece of track. 

[37lover]

PJ,

Yes planning is important, that's what I do for a living in Construction. Previous posts have already pointed out the need for security, protection against the elements, and heating. Insulation isn't mandatory but obviously can give a more stable internal environment and reduce heating costs.

 

However, for a train room in a garage it's a compromise and value for money together with consequences of any "sub standard" work need to be assessed. We can over complicate things, my office has a good saying JDI = just do it!  😀.

 

My tube heater keeps the room at a minimum of 14 degrees C. I haven't seen any evidence of condensation and quite frankly don't expect to see any. If in 5 or 10 years there are any problems it will be a good incentive to rip it all out and start again.

[PJ_model_trains]

I was a building surveyor for many years 37Lover, hence the planning, I am also aware what damage can be caused when items like Celutex and Kingspan are put up against cold surfaces and when ventilation is blocked where it is needed.

 

It is not just a case of just do it, which I agree in principle, for me I cannot do it due to my disability, but doing things not being aware of the consequences can lead to a more costly job in the end. We do not know over time who reads the messages, so it is important to state the facts to help people where possible and avoid them doing things and regretting them later. 

 

A room in a room as you have is brilliant, but when the room has 4 outside walls of single brick, except for pillars, then the walls will be cold in winter, if insulating, insulating correctly to avoid issues is important.  

[37lover]

@debe45

Derek,

As promised I have posted some photos but on reflection I don't think these will help very much. Given that your garage is not large you probably cannot build a separate room within so will have to consider improving the whole garage.

 

Wall can be insulated as my earlier suggestion or as others have proposed using battens and proprietary rigid insulation boards, you will need to prepare a simple cost estimate and make your choice. Ditto the ceiling, well worth putting something overhead as we all know heat rises! The big question is whether you want to use the existing car doors or can you, albeit perhaps only temporarily, seal these as well as insulating. The other big question is how are your DIY skills 🤑.

 

My train room is 3m x 2.2m clear inside.

The first photo shows the garage up & over door on the extreme right, the train room straight ahead, and my exsting workshop at the back on the far left. You can probably make out the step at the room door up onto the raised flooring.

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The next photo shows two horizontal battens and the vertical 3" x 2" studs fixed at 2ft centres to the outside wall. A sheet of plasterboard has been fixed to the left side.

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This photo shows the bus wires with spurs ready for droppers before I fixed the top to the layout frame.

 

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I covered the frame with 12mm thick MDF

 

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Finally I glued and screwed a 12mm thick fibre insulation board onto the mdf. This is obtainable from Builders Merchants and is a lot cheaper than Sundela [sp?] but provides a reasonably soft surface to accept track pins. You can also see that I used up some old paints to seal the board top.

 

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It's not easy tracking down earlier photos but if you're interested in the General Discussion "Removable Sections" thread I posted on 16 Jan 2017, in the "What is everyone doing this weekend with their model railways" thread I posted 28 January 2015 and way back in 12 December 2014 I put some pictures up in "How many of you actually make anything from scratch". You could click on my user name and scroll back through my history to find these but it is time consuming.

[37lover]

PJ,

I've said my bit, you've said yours.

I have posted some photos but they need approval so will not appear until tomorrow at the earliest. Unless the OP asks me a direct question I don't intend continuing to discuss the merits of applying insulation, the OP can decide how they want to continue. 

[The Doc]

My layout has been in the (double) garage for 15 years, so the answer to the original question is a definite 'yes'.  I'm probably doing lots of things wrong, as there is minimal insulation, the doors are not draft proof or water tight round the edges and I once had a small stream running through it when our neighbour's guttering collapsed in a storm.  I also have hot and cold running creatures in the garage (+ a grass snake once) and they invariably leave evidence of their visits, particularly the mice, so I wash my hands after each modelling or play session.  Despite all this, I have only come across two problems and they both relate to Superquick card buildings.  The roof of the good shed warped after about 5 years, and the sellotape I had used to stick some windows in place also gave up, so all windows are now stuck in place with evostik.  Metcalfe models, that tend to have two pieces of card laminated together for the walls, seem very robust and don't mind the damp in the garage.  My locos don't seem to have suffered either, with the oldest ones still running as well as when I first got them.

[Yelrow]

It might be more of a help to the poster, if the costs of these products were made available. From what you guys are discussing, we must be talking about the best part of a tidy bit. Far more, than the average amateur modeller, is willing or able to spend. Faced with these sort of costs,  he might need a stiff drink..

[37lover]

Yelrow,

Perhaps but I'm sure the OP can draw up a simple shopping list and find prices themselves; the biggest factor in that is whether they would install themselves or get someone to do it for them. Once you start factoring in labour costs then yes it would either be a stiff drink and forget about the layout or forgo the stiff drink and put the money towards the conversion. 

[Yelrow]

37, many would not know, where to start. On another forum, this type of conversion, quoted insulation board prices,  which i found very interesting, including where product could be obtained, which was very helpful.. If there is a simple per metre cost, it would be good to know.

[The Doc]

@debe45,

 

If I were you I would start by designing a fairly small and simple layout that has scope for expansion, then build plywood baseboards for it.  Try it in your garage as it is without spending months of time and effort, or a lot of money, getting the garage to be an "ideal" location for your layout.  That's basically what I did and I have no regrets.  My layout started as a 6' x 3' board and is now 18' x 6', still incorporating the original board and much of the scenery that was originally on it.

[PJ_model_trains]

yelrow

I agree with 37Lover, John. It is up to the individual if they think it is feasible to do. All we can do is share some important facts to consider and any possible pitfalls if not done in a way to avoid them. 

 

The OP is considering a layout in his garage, he is also asking do I need insulation. Although insulation is wise there are things to consider, by sharing these things, the OP can then decide if he should consider having his layout in the garage, with or without insulation. At this stage he is seeking advise, he is only doing a basic feasibility, he is not yet at checking affordability.

 

Is it still cold in France John? 

[Yelrow]

Handy having large telly in your train room.

[Yelrow]

Paul,  i fail to see the harm in offereing the cost per metre of insulation material.   If i was considering this, any known costs, would be useful., at this stage. Surely better to be aware of the need for insulation, heating, etc, and some idea of cost to add to baseboard cost. We offer advice on best place to buy track, locos, etc, even what timber/ ply, so if anyone has a recommendation for insulation. .......  Yes its still cold. Snowed yesterday. Gates frozen, unable to exit...

[debe45]

Thanks all.

A wealth of help, guidance and info here.  I hope to print off some of your poats and read and study at my leisure.  Frankly I dislike reading long documents on a screen.  I especially thank thoses who have used a garage, their info is most welcome, so a big thanks to you all. The Doc, 37Lover, PJ

Regards

Derek

[37lover]

@ Yelrow,

On another forum, this type of conversion, quoted insulation board prices, - can you provide a link to the other forum page with these prices please?

[Yelrow]

Model rail forum, two conversions, one in sussex,and one in the north.

[37lover]

Yelrow,

Thanks but what about a link? Or at least guidance so I can find the relevant thread?

[Yelrow]

Forum went off for a few days and old topics lost, but building continues on wWhatever the old thread was called posting, by Brian.

[Yelrow]

37, many of us are on this forum, where Flashbang  is the new owner. Should you join, i can PM you the relevant threads. Lot of interesting building works here..

[PJ_model_trains]

@yelrow

 

There is no harm in offering prices for the insulation, but at this stage we did not know if Derek wants to do the works, all he was asking was, do I need insulation. I never see the point in making work, when it is not needed or not asked for. As for the insulation sheets, as 37Lover said, a quick search on the internet will confirm the costs of the materials. 

 

Sorry to hear you are snowed in, from memory I think you said you can't use your trains in the loft in winter, now that is a delima, snowed in and not able to play trains. Make yourself and your wife a nice brew and keep warm.

 

Yes a large TV is a great advantage in the garage or large room, I think. I have just purchased a tilt and turn bracket so I can get a good angel on it to see clearly from the my control position.

[37lover]

Derek et al,

I should start by clarifying absolutely no come back to me for the following if found faulty!

But hopefully to give you some guidance I would estimate the following material only costs for lining a 20ft x 10ft garage. This is based on typical prices from major DIY stores, I'm sure you could find a few prices  cheaper if you looked around. 

Two long sides plus one end and the ceiling £700 and this could rise to almost twice if you used treated timber and rigid insulation.

To build a free standing stud wall across one end [behind the existing garage door(s) about £130.

To lay joists on the floor, braced with noggins [the pieces of wood cut between adjacent joists to stop them falling over] with loft type insulation and covered with T&G loft boards around £300. A better job would be to use 18mm thick plywood instead of the T&G and this would add about £60.

So you probably should be budgeting around the £1,200 mark rather than £600 if you want to line and insulate all six faces. I must stress this is material only and excludes any labour.

[debe45]

@37lover

Thanks for the pics, they are very interesting and very, very useful.  Along with all the tips I think my first  job will be to cut out the  draughts, up and over door and get some insulation on walls and ceiling, and a little heater.  The garage is not too cold at present and has a small blower heater but that can't stay on all the time.

 

Many thanks

[37lover]

Glad to have helped. What you are suggesting sounds very good and without spending too much should improve the conditions. 

[Yelrow]

37 lover , thank you for providing   Estimated costings  , extremely.   useful. There is another garage/ shed build on RM forum.    When one contemplates. these layouts in sheds/ garages. , often on limited budgets,  it is  good to be aware of total picture. This can then be added to ply and softwood costs, for baseboard and legs.     You really need to be a serious modeller, at this point. Would not have been feasible. for me, when working, as frequent company promotions , meant several  house moves.I would have left a trail of converted garages. all over uk.