Points only fire on startup

[leer76]

Hi all

I have just programmed a Traintech point controller to throw my points but it only throws them when the railmaster program first runs, that is when it is setting the points, if i try to throw manually i get nothing. I was going to blame it on the point installation but surely if that was it they would'nt fire at all. I just don't get why they don't fire when i ask them to. I have assigned the correct port numbers and decoder in the railmaster track editor.

I'm using hornby 8216 point decoder (working fine) and seep pm1's plus the traintech decoder (but only fires 2 points in normal operation)

Any ideas anyone??

[St1ngr4y]

Hi,

When you say “manually” do you mean when you click on the points red/green buttons on the layout diagram?

Have you tried switching them under control of a program?

Ray

[leer76]

Hi

So this is what i have so far: the traintech decoder has 4 points coming from it:

Port 1 is assigned to 2 points as they switch together (in the railmaster track editor they are assigned as point 5 and fire just fine)

Port 2 is assigned to the rear switchblade on a 3 way and is assigned to point 6 in railmaster (does not fire when asked only on startup)

Port 3 is assigned to the front switchblade on the 3 way and is assigned to point 7 in railmaster (also does not fire)

Port 4 is currently unused

In answer to your question yes i have tried switching under the program control and yes it is the red and green icons i am switching but with no joy. All other point switching is working fine. As i say they must be getting a command from somewhere to switch when Railmaster starts but i have no idea where that command could becoming from because thats the only time that they activate

[Fishmanoz]

What happens if you re-address the points to 1, 2 and 3?

[P-Henny]

Since the fire points on startup is a process that is separate from firing points manually from the track plan screen. Then it is logical to assume that it is something to do with the way you have created your track plan and configured the point icons on it.

You wrote:

"I have assigned the correct port numbers and decoder in the railmaster track editor."

No disrespect intended, but so many times we see comments like "I have done it correctly" but when investigated further it transpires that something was indeed wrong. After all, if everything had been done correctly, then it would probably be working.

When you placed the red & green buttons on the track plan. Did you see the icons SNAP to their final postions. This SNAPPING action observation is very important and things may not operate correctly if the snapping to position is not observed. To invoke the snap, you have to postion the cursor (not the button icons) into the middle of the point icon when placing the red & green operating buttons on the plan. The icons should then snap to position when releasing the mouse drag button.

1) What decoder have you selected in the pull down decoder selection box?

Once you have confirmed the snapping action of the point button icons and regardless of what decoders are listed (i.e. TrainTech ones) in the drop down selection box I would try selecting the Hornby R8247 decoder, save the track plan and test the point operation again.

2) Can you please state the TrainTech decoder model number. It then makes it so much easier to research answers to your question.

3) What version of Railmaster, including the revision number are you running?

The main version is displayed in the bottom right corner and hover the cursor over it to see the pop-up showing the revision number. The very latest RM is version 1.74 revision 5.

4) Is the controller used with RM the Elite or eLink?

All these 4 questions are important to answer as they do have a bearing on what to suggest next.

[St1ngr4y]

Also, how many controllers are you using?

Ray

[96RAF]

Do you have RM-Pro.

In the basic version the points startup (if the box is ticked to do so) in order of placing on the track-plan, but in Pro the order of firing has to be designated in each point setup box, else if blank they are ignored at startup.

[St1ngr4y]

This whole scenario makes less sense the more I think about it. Is there any way that you could have correctly configured the points buttons in the layout editor and snapped them into position on the points, then inadvertently placed another pair of non-configured buttons on top? If so, the buttons on top wouldn’t work, but the original buttons underneath would cause them to be included in the list of points to be fired at startup.

Ray

[leer76]

Hi All

I'm going to try and answer everyones questions so here we go

Paul, When you mentioned check to see if they had all "snapped" i went and did so as i do remember i had a problem with one or two when i planned it. After realising that to get them to snap meant placing the icon in the middle of the square i went back and done this to every point so they are all now "snapped". I won't be able to check operation until tomorrow now though.

I have selected Traintech PC2 controller although i am using a PC200

I have just noticed i'm running version 1.72, it never tells me about an update

I am using an e-link and running RM on windows 10

96RAF, I am using the basic version and i do have the points startup box ticked

Ray, I have to say I too think it is something i have misconfigured as i seem to remember "losing" the odd icon when trying to place points and had to re-replace them. They must get that command from somewhere, I have the newer hornby accessory decoder aswell (8246??) and i have the same problem on that aswell, and I am using 1 e-link controller running off windows 10

Fishmanoz, I have yet to try this but its got to be worth a shout

Thanks All

[St1ngr4y]

Go into the layout editor, and for each point button pair which isn’t working, try dragging the red or green button to an empty part of the diagram to see if there is another button hiding underneath.

Ray

[leer76]

I've just deleted the points in question in RM to make sure there was not a set lurking underneath. I've now placed them back on and they have snapped into place, I thought i would leave them unassigned in RM to see if they fire when it starts up but will not be able to check operation until tomorrow, my thinking is if they don't fire on startup at least we'll know (i like to think we're all in this togethergrinning) if its a misconfig on my part or if a rogue signal exists somewhere, hopefully they won't fire and we can take it from there

I'm not sure updating the software will help as i think v1.74 was just a manual update

I'll report back tomorrow

[P-Henny]

Now that you have them snapping.

Select the R8247 in the pull down box and not the PC2. The PC200 is a different device to the PC2 and the RM DCC code may be slightly different.

Also, once the R8247 is selected in the pull down box. Go through the PC200 set address process again using the physical address set (learning) switch on the PC200. Do this to ensure that the PC200 recognises and reacts to the R8247 DCC command and address structure of the packet.

If that doesn't work, go back to selecting the PC2 in the decoder selection box and go through the physical switch button address setting again. It may have not been successful the first time you selected the PC2 due to the lack of snapping action previously during the setting up process.

P.S It is the mouse cursor you place in the centre of the point on the track plan screen more so than the button icons.

Version 1.72 Railmaster is buggy and should be updated to 1.74.5, but try the above first before updating. Then try updating if the above doesn't work.

You say that the R8216 points decoder works well but the R8247 you have doesn't. The R8216 is now obsolete and was replaced by the R8247. I'm just guessing, but I think the later R8247 decoder may be better supported in the 1.74.5 software.

[96RAF]

The R8216 is a finicky beast that only supports a pulsed output and needs pre-charging before programming, so if it is working leave well alone and work the other decoders round it.

The R8247 can be reset just like a loco decoder by writing value 8 to CV8, first making sure it is the only thing connected to your programming track output.

Is the R8247 v1.0 or v2.0. as the v1.0 is not as versatile as the v2.0 and the user manuals are very different.

[leer76]

Hi all

Quick update as between us we are almost there!

First thing with regards to the 8216 decoder it is actually programmed as an 8247 as it wouldn't program under an 8216, not sure how to find the version number of the 8247 but it is labelled as R8247-50-634 and the 8216 is labelled R8216-05-07 if it helps.

Anyway last night i deleted the points in RM planner and then "replaced" them without reconfiguring them purely to see if they still fired on startup - well alas they did, I was just about to follow Pauls advice with regards to selecting a different controller in RM when i noticed that one of the offending points was configured for a point i haven't physically installed yet!! It was configured within RM planner as working decoder port 0, My ports are numbered 1-4 on the R8216 (which all work fine) and 5-8 on the traintech.

So port 1 on decoder operates points 5 and 6 (they face each other and switch together), these work when instructed

Port 2 should operare point 7 but doesn't (ony on startup)

Port 3 will now operate point 8 but only because within RM planner i have noticed it is configured as decoder port 0 and strangley now operates points 5 and 6.

I have no idea where port 0 has come from, i've even reset the pc200 and reprogrammed but still the same

[St1ngr4y]

Hi,

I’m getting a little bit lost with your descriptions of what is happening, I’m afraid. Can we simplify things by referring to the items on your layout diagram as buttons and points icons. The buttons are where the configuration information is held for a set of points. The buttons, once configured, should be capable of operating the physical points on your layout without a points icon even being present in the diagram, let alone “snapped “ into place on a points icon. Also it is possible for any icons which you place on your diagram to be accidentally dragged off the edge of the layout editor screen, and if they happen to be configured buttons, then they would probably fire at startup, for evermore. Is it possible that this has happened?

Ray

[P-Henny]

Please follow the guidance as written in my last reply. At least try it, but with this additional guidance written below.

When setting up the points in RM for the points associated with the PC200 use address 9 (I am assuming here that address 9 has not been previously used, if it has been used before then see further below) and select the R8247 as the decoder in the pull down list.

Therefore create the three points in the track plan as address 9, 10, & 11 (I have noted that you are not using the fourth port which would be address 12). But read Addendum below first.

Save the plan and restart RM.

Now use the learn switch on the PC200 and click the green & red buttons for the point configured as 9 on the track plan.

Restore the learn switch on the PC200 to the normal run position. Then test point operation using the point icons configured with addresses 9, 10 & 11.

I chose 9 because point addressing should increment in fours for quad port decoders.

1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20, 21-24 etc

If 9 is already in use, then pick a free set of four addresses following the numbering sequence above, with port one assigned the first number in the four address range i.e 13 or 17 or 21 etc

Quad decoders take the first address that is sent to then for the first port and set the other three ports sequentially from that. Thus it is not necessary to try to manually set the 10, 11 & 12 addresses for the other ports.

Addendum.

To eliminate the concerns that Ray has, regarding lost off screen configurations and configuration conflicts. You could create a completely new test track plan with just 3 point icons on it. They do not have to be connected to any other track pieces. Just three points placed randomly on the track plan screen. Use these three points for all the testing to identify a working solution configuration for the PC200 before transferring what you learn that works to the original track plan. Remember, once this test track plan is saved, you will have to select it as the RM start up plan in the 'System Settings' screen.

Report back observations.

[leer76]

Ray,

I agree, even i have to keep re reading to see if it makes sense,

Ok so the buttons are all snapped into place at the relevent point icons

I have assigned ports 1-4 on the decoder as ports 5-8 when i programmed the decoder as 1-4 is already occupied by the R8216.

The buttons around 2 of the points are configured to work from decoder port 8 and work fine

I have now discovered purely by accident that if I assign the button to port 0 it works but also operates the point controlled by port 8?? I don't see how this is possible as port 0 was not even an option, i had to put it in manually. Maybe i have a cross feed somewhere if thats possible??

In answer to your last question yes their is every possibility that buttons have disappeared as i lost one only the other day behind the elements pane on the left, i did select the remaining button and delete but the chances are it could have happened before, whether they were configured i don't know

I had also for some reason even i don't remember added an uncoupler in RM planner and a couple of signals (these aren't even installed yet) and they were also all configured to work from port 0, this could be where the problem lies

[96RAF]

Drag the plan around in design mode to see if the phantom point is lurking off screen. RM ideally should have a ‘not in view’ tracker but it doesn’t so you have to look manually.

[St1ngr4y]

If you want to know whether there are icons located off the edge (top or left) of the diagram in the editor window, there is a Railmaster utility program available which includes a function which will bring them back into view. It can be downloaded using this link:-

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhG7bX4H0NOtgYV_UUSBYStwFKS98g?e=GhZjVi

The executable file can be copied into your Railmaster folder, and there is a guide to the functions provided by the program. One of the functions, “Realign layout” is intended to move the whole layout diagram towards the top left corner, but if track pieces are found off the edge of the layout, it is moved the other way, bringing the hidden pieces back into view. Maybe worth a try if nothing else works.

Ray

[leer76]

Hi

So i followed Pauls advice but first cleared the memory of the PC200

I then accesed accessory programmer in RM and selected the R8247, I assigned ports 9-12 and wrote the cv's to the decoder via the track output not the program output as per the PC200 instructions and this was successful.

I then opened RM and configured all the points to the relevant ports, the only option i didn't change was the controller, I left it as a PC200

I saved the track plan, checked the points and it worked!!, I still don't know how they were operating from a port that didn't even exist though.

A big thankyou to Fishmanoz, 96RAF, Ray and Paul, who got us over the last hurdle, I like to think it was a team effort

I think we can consider this case solved gentlemen

[St1ngr4y]

wow we posted at exactly the same time 😉

[P-Henny]

Glad I at least my input helped to sort you out.

And if you recall, in my very first reply I said regardless how much users think that they have done everything correctly. Investigation usually shows that something is not done right, or at least not done by the optimum method.

In this case, I think it was probably a combination of the 'snapping' action issue and the addressing process used. If I understood your description correctly you used the Hornby R8247 decoder selection to actually configure the PC200 addresses, even if you are using the PC2 decoder selection to actually operate the points. The R8247 DCC commands generated by RM are fully NMRA compliant for accessory decoders and I find that the R8247 decoder selection works with a wide range of non Hornby accessory decoders.

[Fishmanoz]

Fantastic leer, pleased you’ve solved it.

And use of the 8247 option - has been the recommendation for years if the actual decoder not available in RM.

[P-Henny]

@leer76

In reviewing my input to this thread, I noticed that in your post on page 2 you wrote

"I then accesed accessory programmer in RM and selected the R8247".

The Train-Tech PC200 accessory decoder is a 'self learning' decoder, thus it is completely un-neccessary to use the RM Accessory Configuration screen to set a DCC Address on the T-T PC200 Accessory Decoder. The RM Accessory Configuration screen is really meant for configuring DCC Addresses in decoders that use 'Service Mode' programming. It is true that this screen, particularly the one in RM Pro, does have some capability for some specific 'Self Learning' decoders, but it is not the most effective way of configuring 'Self Learning' decoder addresses.

I gave some guidance in my previous replies for setting the PC200 DCC Address using the decoder 'learn' button, but the significance or meaning of it seems to have not been fully appreciated. There is an existing FAQ that describes each step in detail for 'DCC Concepts' decoders that can also be read as being 'in principle' methodology for other brands of 'Self Learning' decoders. It is written for 'DCC Concepts' self learning decoders but is also equally applicable to Train-Tech self learning decoders as well.

The FAQ to read and follow is FAQ6 in the 'Railmaster FAQ Index' sticky.

Note that with the PC200 and following the FAQ6 guidance, you can do one of two things. You can either use the instructions in FAQ6 to send an 'operate' Address from the configured point buttons on the RM track plan to the PC200 in 'Learn Mode' using a single press of the learn button on the PC200. This will assign four consecutive addresses for the four ports. Or you can press the PC200 learn button multiple times to select each port individually to set four different non sequential DCC Addresses using the configured RM track plan point buttons. To reiterate again, none of this configuration process requires the use of the RM Accessory Decoder configuration screen, it is all done via the normal RM track plan 'operating the layout' screen.

So why am I mentioning this so long after this issue was resolved. Simply because your other more recent thread with your new RM issue may require you to set up the decoders again from scratch and I want to ensure that you use a more effective method this time round.

[leer76]

If I'm honest I did think it seemed a waste of time programming through the accessory setting, but thankyou, when i have RM back up and running I shall simply use the "learn" button. I will update on the previous thread