Problem with Elite decoder programming

[voucherman]

Apologies for the lazy post, but I've not had much luck searching.

I'm just getting back into the hobby after a break of about 10 years. I've updated the Elite's firmware, and thought it best to check the state of the locos before I started anything else. I set up a programming track, and tried to set up all the addresses, but only 6 of them appear to work. When I tried to read the address, after writing, about 10 of the locos just had XXX in place of the number.

Hoping that others who've encountered the problem will also have found a solution.

I think 5 out of the 6 that currently work have R8249 decoders in them, so those not yet working are a mix of R8249, R8245 & some unknowns that were either factory fitted, or by the previous owner, for a couple of 2nd hand models.

All but 3 of the locos have spent the last 10 years stood on pieces of track inside display cabinets. Not sealed, but reasonable dust excluders. I've given some of the wheels a bit of a clean, mostly using isopropyl alcohol on a cotton bud. The track I went over with a rubber, then wiped it with isopropyl too.

Any suggestions on the likely problem/solution would be very welcome, as I'd prefer to fix all the locos before starting back on the track-work.

As a side note, I had a quick look at wheel-cleaners, and wondered if they're generally considered a good addition to the maintenance cupboard. The two I've looked at so far are Woodland Scenics' & Guagemaster's.

[ColinB]

The first thing to check is that the loco makes good contact with the track. The other thing I have noticed, is if it is going to program properly you should hear a relay in the Elite click two or three times ( depending on the decoder). The next thing is if someone has added some types of "stay alive" that can stop it programming. Finally on some old types of decoder they just seem to fail to program. I could list all the ones I have had issues with but this is probably not the place to do. The makes I have less issues with are Zimo and Train o Matic, the newer Hornby ones seem to be ok.

[96RAF]

Some factory fit decoders were the old totally unreliable R8215, the forerunner to the better but still basic R8249. The R8245 Sapphire is a very good reliable decoder. Some decoders cannot be read-back, including the R8215, check any spec sheets you have for the other make decoders.

If you have an led track power detector then stick it on your programming track. As the Elite sends its programming bursts in concert with the relay clicking and its own red led lighting you will get a visual indication that something is reaching the programming track. Also check that if using a power track or power clip that they are the digital version - i.e do not have a capacitor across the rails as this will interfere with programming. If you have solder direct to the rails then OK.

Ref wheel cleaners I use the GM60 track mounted wire brush and that is effective for driven wheels. Under no circumstances use a HF electronic track cleaner with DCC kit, or you will destroy the decoders.

[P-Henny]

You haven't given any details regarding how your 'programming track' is implemented and connected to the Elite 'PROG' terminals.

If using a 'Power Track' or 'Track Connector', I would replace those with wires soldered directly to the programming track rails, and as 96RAF says in his reply confirm they are digital versions if still used. The digital power track has green or dark grey press buttons. If they are buff coloured, then they are Analogue and probably the cause of your issue.

I would also use some Emery paper [or equivalent] to thoroughly clean the PROG wire contact area under the spring terminals. Also, strip back a bit more insulation off the wires to bare fresh clean copper. The PROG output being such low power allows these contact areas to become easily tarnished. This cleaning regime worked for me when I experienced similar Elite programming issues.

[voucherman]

Some useful information there, thank you.

You haven't given any details regarding how your 'programming track' is implemented and connected to the Elite 'PROG' terminals.

You've likely identified the issue. I've just used an old analogue power track, which appears to be the only type I have. I guess having successfully set a couple of locos, I got complacent. Time to get the soldering iron out & make a better job.

Under no circumstances use a HF electronic track cleaner with DCC kit, or you will destroy the decoders.

For now my only track cleaner, other than a rubber, is a Dapol cleaner, which also needs checking.

If I don't follow up here, you can assume the problem's solved, and all should be quiet, unless I ever get around to trying to get RailMaster up & running, but knowing me, that won't happen inside the next couple of years.

[P-Henny]

You've likely identified the issue. I've just used an old analogue power track, which appears to be the only type I have.

 

 

The Analogue power track & connectors including the R8201 Link Wire connectors have Analogue supression capacitors inside them connected across the track rails. These capacitors corrupt DCC Digital Commands and need to be eliminated (removed) when using DCC control. This includes any used on the main layout power connectivity, that your reply (bold in the above quote) suggests you have.

[voucherman]

The Analogue power track & connectors including the R8201 Link Wire connectors have Analogue supression capacitors inside them connected across the track rails. These capacitors corrupt DCC Digital Commands and need to be eliminated (removed) when using DCC control.

 

 

I only used the link connector for convenience this time. All previous trackwork was connected using droppers connected to a bus, and once I'm up & running, new track will be too. As for the link connectors, I think they're best consigned to the bin.

 

 

 

 

So, after soldering a new programming track, and adding soldered joints to my small oval test track, nearly all the locos are now working. A couple of them do show the address when asked, but all the others still show XXX, so as noted by 96RAF, it's probably due to the type of decoder. A few of the locos were a bit juddery to start off, but a couple of drops of oil seems to have cured them.

 

 

Now I'm happy there's a few working locos to play with, I can put them all back in the cabinets and start on the track.

 

 

As for the wheel cleaner, it looks like I'll be staying with cotton buds for now. It was mainly the rolling stock I hoped to use it for, but after a bit more searching and watching some youtube videos, I've not found anything suitable.

[P-Henny]

So, after soldering a new programming track, and adding soldered joints to my small oval test track, nearly all the locos are now working.

 

 

OK that is a test oval, but do not solder the track joints on the main layout. It is not recommended as the joints need to expand and contract.

They way to go is to use a power BUS with droppers, thereby relegating the fish plate joiners to only performing the function of joining track and rail alignment.

With regard track cleaning, research "Sharge". Sharge is a heavy metal tank wagon into which you put cleaning fluid and has a sprung loaded track cleaning pad slung underneath.

A number of forum members use this product and give it a positive rating. Most on here do not rate the Dapol track cleaner at all.

https://www.model-trainstrack-cleaner.co.uk/shop/

[ColinB]

I use one of those Peco track cleaners or an ink rubber, not too abrasive to take away too much metal but good enough to remove the oxide that collects. We used to use the same technique on gold edge connectors on PCBs where you cannot afford to remove too much gold. I use the Dapol track cleaner, there are are few issues with it. On mine the pickups were terrible so I had to rewire them. Then it is not really heavy enough, cured by adding weight but the really big issue I found was it stops working on dirty track what a surprise. Now if you run DCC this is easy to cure. Put "stay alive" in the pulling loco, in my case use Accurascale class 37 on DCC, then run the cleaner on DCC with "stay alive" then it works really well.