atom3624 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 It has been mentioned before, and refused but there's an increasing 'element' of manufacturing enterprises who are doing just that. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68500499 Perhaps our hobby is too specialised / well established in China to happen overnight? Never say never, as they say! Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HST Mainline Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 If you want to keep prices of model railways down, I don't think reshoring is an option at the moment. I do think, however, that it might be in the future. China is not as cheap as they used to be. I wouldn't mind buying "Made in England" Hornby, but I would if I had to pay premium for a Railroad model. Prices need to be the same level as today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) This has been going on for a while, a luxury leather firm (maker of high class leather wallets) found because of the failure rate in China it was cheaper to get them made in the UK as it was cheaper and easier to manage. I know with PCBs I went to an electronics exhibition and a guy was saving that he could made a PCB for roughly the same price as one sourced from China. As I have said on many occasions a lot of stuff is made by machine, so it is probably the same machine whether it is in China or the UK. Watch Jenny Kirk's YouTube video on Dapol making wagons in Wales and lets face it their design may be old but those wagons sold by Dapol aren't that expensive. It is a British and US disease "lets outsource everything then whine like made when the Suez Canal is blocked". Edited March 13 by ColinB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 I do think that the 'now substantial' transport costs are starting to affect our hobby. True, one container can house half of UK's distributors' worth of railway items, perhaps, but together with production costs combined ... We still see there's a huge amount of highly skilled manual work involved - separately fitted and painted body parts for example. Is this something a 'modern UK workforce' would welcome as a 9 to 5, 5-day week job? I suppose it pays. Perhaps there's more which could be robotised in the 'separately fitted' listings? Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 2 hours ago, atom3624 said: I do think that the 'now substantial' transport costs are starting to affect our hobby. True, one container can house half of UK's distributors' worth of railway items, perhaps, but together with production costs combined ... We still see there's a huge amount of highly skilled manual work involved - separately fitted and painted body parts for example. Is this something a 'modern UK workforce' would welcome as a 9 to 5, 5-day week job? I suppose it pays. Perhaps there's more which could be robotised in the 'separately fitted' listings? Al. Maybe it needs design even cleverer than the last attempt at smart design, such that assembly could be more robotised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 TBH, why not Rob? They'll all able to transfer the precise location of every rivet, bolt and injector now, and moulding 'technology' is better than ever - not all has to be separately fitted. My latest CavAlex class 56 has fully 'see through' roof venting which is perfectly strong enough to be handled without flexing under 'normal conditions'. Al. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry-350851 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 If Hornby was manufacturing or assembling models in the UK (they wouldn't have to manufacture everything or even every part) then, provided it wasn't substandard and of competitive detail/quality, I would be prepared to pay a premium for it. However, I'm not sure how many people would given historically people haven't supported British manufacturing despite having the choice to (then complained when it disappeared). I'm also, only now buying a small amount of rolling stock of what I really want rather than buying stuff I don't have the space for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carltonf Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 I'd love to see manufacturing back in the UK for Hornby, and others manufacturing. But, there is one thing that is 100% certain - there is no way mouldings and presses will ever be allowed to leave China. Even when companies look to diversify to other geographical locations, I believe China exerts considerable pressure to dissuade such moves, protecting their interests. I do wonder if Hornby considered setting up the brand new TT moulds in the UK, but even that could have jeopardised the Chinese contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 So China is following Germany in the Hotel California model. I must admit I never realised this happened. I know that to make anything in China you must have a Chinese Company as a sponsor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 This is slightly misleading, IP and tooling that is owned by the Brand , in this case Hornby, cannot be held in China against the wishes of the owner (Hornby) there are quite well established contracts in manufacturing that explicitly cater for this and highlight ‘who owns what’ Companies that have exited China have simply followed the contractual procedures and shipped tooling and ‘files’ out with few issues. The story is often conflated due to the position of Bachmann/Kader Holdings. Kader is the Chinese parent company of Bachmann and with exception of a few random quirks, virtually all of the Bachmann model IP and tooling is owned by Kader Holdings in China. Should Kader fall victim to its current financially delicate position, any attempt to move that IP or tooling would be extremely difficult and almost certainly impossible to take it out of China. When a company in China fails (owes lots of money) someone usually ‘falls out of a window/goes to be re-educated/live of a farm in the countryside’ and sorting the mess out takes years/decades, if ever. Reshoring for model making would be challenging as the experienced skill set simply does not exist and it would be needed on a hefty scale. Could a UK brand keep a factory running at an economically viable volume? Chinese factories produce for a number of clients, hence the allocation of production slots. Could a UK factory ‘win’ other contracts to keep the lights on? There is also a significant level of capital investment for the machinery to make and paint. It’s specialised and expensive to commission. A potential cloud on the horizon in China is also looming, aging workforce. If you examine the company records at Kader, the assembly staff are 50 plus years old and female, almost no younger workers are coming into the business, that could be due to Kader’s current position but there is similar comment from other manufacturing companies, young Chinese workers don’t want to work in factories. Robotisation is not always as easy as it sounds, the mighty FIAT, leaders in Automotive Robotisation (they mastered fully automated engine manufacturing 😳!!) spent a fortune to develop a robot to put the spare wheel in the boot of a particular model, it was of course much cheaper and effective to pay a human to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 Multiple products - the scope is huge enough as it is with Hornby alone, but the Hornby brands included - Airfix, Scalextric - could feasibly make it more interesting? Agreed, there would be a huge implementation and learning curve, notwithstanding the skillsets, as mentioned. I was just thinking of the increasingly huge shipping costs, and risks .... these will now be a quite significant consideration. Al. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 It’s certainly a process many companies are going through for solid financial reasons. I’d love to see it happen, especially to see Jouef models with Made in England on underside and an emphasis on active QC but for a relatively small company like Hornby it would take a massive lump of money, 10’s of £millions to arrive at a point where you could switch production back to England, maybe one day when TT:120 saves the future of model railways, so soon 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 In my view it could only be done on a drip feed basis. Airfix appear to have tried it as have Dapol, so it would take years and at great cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 8 hours ago, 96RAF said: In my view it could only be done on a drip feed basis. Airfix appear to have tried it as have Dapol, so it would take years and at great cost. I don't think Dapol never stopped doing it. They seemed to have always had that facility. If you ever go round a heritage railway their souvenir wagons always seem to be made in the UK by Dapol. I suppose they can do small runs at reasonably short notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac1707817969 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 With the huge labour issues in the UK if production was being moved back I would think Britain would be the last country anyone with half a wit would choose to locate a manufacturing business. Considering the latest figures show the percentage of the population of working age that is not working is now 21.9%. It even higher than this in the under 25s. Can’t see how this situation is going to be easily rectified with the ingrained ‘something for nothing’ culture that is endemic in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 8 minutes ago, AndyMac1707817969 said: With the huge labour issues in the UK if production was being moved back I would think Britain would be the last country anyone with half a wit would choose to locate a manufacturing business. Considering the latest figures show the percentage of the population of working age that is not working is now 21.9%. It even higher than this in the under 25s. Can’t see how this situation is going to be easily rectified with the ingrained ‘something for nothing’ culture that is endemic in this country. I hate to say it but the UK is not the highest cost labour nor is it the most problematic anymore. You obviously are stuck somewhere in the 1970s. Read any newspaper/webpage and you will find as a country we are no worse than the rest. I read a report about the US and Germany suffering similar issues and Tesla had no issues opening a plant in Germany, although reading latest reports I suspect they are beginning to regret that now. To go on strike in the UK is extremely difficult with the latest labour laws, so please stop knocking this country and please don't believe everything you read. Most issues with the lack of working population is they don't want minimum wage jobs or zero hours contracts, they want meaningful employment which there is an increasing lack of. Right political bit over, sorry about the rant but I hate it when people are so negative. I have travelled many places with my job and you would be surprised how bad they are, try getting some work done during the Germans lunch break or moving the contents of you desk in the US without getting a fine from the Union responsible for normally doing it. As to moving production to the UK, who knows, I have made my feelings clear on numerous occasions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) I have locked this thread as it has gone well off the Model railway theme. A number of posts have been removed completely. Edited March 27 by RDS Updated information 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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