Brakevans.

[Buz]

Hi all

Well at one time Hornby and the older Triang Produced between them enough brake vans to cover the big 4

and with the right types of van.

and later early BR now basicaly they produce nothing usefull in the way of brake vans.

I think its about time those brake van moulds NE GWR LMS and SR where dusted off and production started again even perhaps looking at perhaps the HR and NB LSWR vans as big 4 as well why NB you ask because its the right style to finish the Wemys train Hornby did the loco, coal wagons but as usual forgot the brake van.

Perhaps thats what Hornby should be doing instead of going for flash new up beat models, fill the gaps in it's own range??

regards John

[Buz]

 Hi

Intresting thread, I quess the question is is how many brakevans should you have on a layout?

As I run anything and everything I currently have 20 brakevans of different liveries and types in my collection as well as 14 caboose for my transcontinental good trains. I think enough to cover the goods trains I run.

Bare minimum for model purposes 1 apropriate brake van for each goods train you have two if its a heavy freight train. 

Plus two spares you all ways seem to end up one van short for some strange reason even when you have plenty of them.

They all seem to have congrigated at the other end of the line when you seem to be one short.

regards John

[Buz]

deleted due to accidental double post

[LCDR]

  One aspect that can be overlooked is that a few non-mainline companies also used brakevans in the past and these provided some really unusual uses. Some examples -

London Transport - They used traditional brakevans especially the parts that used to be the Metropolitan Railway which was more like a main line company. However in the 1950s they built a series of vans to work with the long-welded rail train which included a smaller cabin for the guard so that the rails could be passed alongside when unloaded. These looked like sentryboxes on rails!

War Department / Ministry of Defence Army - The large military railways always had their own fleet of wagons which included guards vans. These were built specially, and included some built for them by the Southern Railway works which could be identified by double vacuum brake cylinders on the veranda at one end. Some of these passed to preservation and can still be found on heritage railways.

/media/tinymce_upload/f5c39df28f3fae1776fcfe1f27833cd5.jpg

Collieries - both the private collieries and the nationalised NCB operated  extensive private railways to carry coal from the mines to the docks. Good examples include the Weymss Railway in Fifeshire, the Ashington Coal Company in Northumberland and the Londonderry Railway in County Durham. but there were plenty of others.

/media/tinymce_upload/e5a69351a3e95fe2c2fb85f2d6f51f5d.jpg

Some of the huge dock systems such as the Port of London and Manchester Ship Canal also had large fleet of rolling stock, including brake vans.

Some users bought secondhand brakevans to use for other purposes. Tool Vans for example./media/tinymce_upload/5043dac15cb1d5c22037e77fdc97456f.jpg

Tool Van in a Steel Works converted from a GW van, note the crane in the veranda and the floodlights on the roof.

Hope you like a few unusual examples.

[Fazy]

Nice to see you posting here again LC&DR.  nice to have a mini History lesson. Always informative and a pleasure to read.

Quick question. 

Brake vans obvious would have worked from one area to another.  But when shunted into a siding would they have been used on the next job back to there home area like a coach.  Or would the get stuck onto any train 

[LCDR]

Nice to see you posting here again LC&DR.  nice to have a mini History lesson. Always informative and a pleasure to read.

Quick question. 

Brake vans obvious would have worked from one area to another.  But when shunted into a siding would they have been used on the next job back to there home area like a coach.  Or would the get stuck onto any train 

The answer as always is - Depends.

Some railway companies used a 'Common User' approach to brake vans, so as a train was marshalled the next van on the kip would be attached. BR generally followed this policy. However certain brake vans were allocated for specific services. This was primarily to keep certain specialist vans captive.  The GWR had RU vans (restricted use), so that a particular service always had a particular van. Many such vans on the GWR had these restrictions painted on to the outside, this usually included the name of the station to which the van had to be returned on arrival. If there was no train going that way then the van might be attached to a locomotive that was going in the nearest direction.

Vans with vacuum brakes were fairly rare, but these were needed for express freight trains, so most railways conserved their vacuum fitted vans, and restricted them. Published closed working were issued for such vehicles.

Occasionally a branch line had some form of restriction of loading gauge or axle load and special brake vans were built or adapted to comply and labelled as restricted to that particular branch.

 

The common user approach could have its drawbacks. Unbalanced workings could see some yards depleted of brake vans. This might result in cancelled trains. A daily census of brake vans was therefore conducted and the results reported to HQ. HQ officers would collate the report and order stations who had a surplus to send them to stations who had a shortage. These 'spare' brakevans would be consigned as extras on the next available goods train going in the right direction.

 

On a model railway some of these transfer movements can be represented by a locomotive hauling just a single brake van.

 

Locomotive and solo brakevan workings were quite common. A locomotive being sent to a remote yard to bring back wagons needed to take a van with them (and vice versa of course).

[Fazy]

That you LC&DR. That gives us modelers reasons to have multiple regions Vans 

[LCDR]

 Absolutely correct, -  in BR days the 20 ton double ended LNER and LMS designs were built as standard and allocated to all regions.

The GWR standard brake van was also built in small numbers by BR but as they were single ended vans that were not universally popular they tended to remain on the Western Region. Some did stray but as a general rule they stayed on the former GWR lines.

The SR 25 ton 'pillbox' van was a better for braking being 5 tons heavier, but the accomodation was very cramped and guards of other regions didn't like them. BR did not adopt the SR design for new build, but retained existing stock and a few did stray on to other regions. The SR Queen Mary bogie brake vans were also 25 tonners and included vacuum brakes. These were originally restricted to Southern Region express goods trains. In later years a few survived as special duty vehicles for carrying escorts for high security loads.

When Freightliners started in 1964 BR provided former passenger coaches to act as guards vans until some months later they could secure agreement with the trade unions for the guard to travel in the rear cab of the locomotive.  Some non-corridor carriages were fitted with air brakes for this purpose. The traditional goods brake van was restricted to 60mph so passenger coaches were required to enable the Liner trains to travel at 75mph.

Nowadays there are very few goods trains with a brake van. Almost all goods trains are worked by a driver on his own.

[81F]

 I would like to se the short GWR brake avaiable as a standard ban and as the PW version. Ihave converted the current Hornby (ex Airfix) one into this but with a dozen precision cuts then gluing the thing back together I don't think I can face doing another!

 

A small LBSC brake to go with my and SWIMBOs terriers.

 

A GWR milk brake van for all those Siphon G and H

 

I am tempted to say the short MR brake but Slatters make such a nice kit I think this would be a waste.

 

An S&DJR brake to go with the Jinties - it would also be a cheap way of getting a train behind my 2P which is still looking for something to pull - the three Rural ramblers of 1970s vintage are just so not going to appear behind it!

[LCDR]

  Together with a group of wagon enthusiasts who meet and communicate on a regular basis we have said for a long time that the main RTR manufacturers really ought to consider producing examples of typical contemporary guards van to match and accompany their pre-Grouping locomotives. This would enable authentic pre-Grouping freight trains to be created using the multitude of planked private owner wagons that dominate the catalogues, and possiblty encourage an interest in the colourful pre-Grouping era.

 

At the present time Hornby have good examples of London & South Western, Great Eastern, and now North Eastern goods engines so examples of LSWR, GER and NER goods brake vans would cetainly be useful.

Bachmann do match their Midland Railway goods locos with a Midland Railway brake, but still haven't matched anything to their South Eastern & Chatham, Great Central or London & North Western locos.

 

I also agree that a good pre-Grouping style GWR goods brake is long overdue.

 

The 'Southern' brake van that Hornby make IS indeed a LB&SCR design, which would match rthe Terriers, although it is an older model with the simplified details and inaccuracies from years ago.

 

We do have the pre-Nationalisation designs, GWR, SR (two types), and LNER from Bachmann, LMS from Hornby, and of course the BR equivalent from both. The Hornby Shark is also a good one to have.

 

So come on Hornby, how about it, a GER, LSWR and NER guards van from the 1900s?

[Fazy]

LNWR for the forthcoming coal tank.

And a L&Y one would be nice too.

[LCDR]

LNWR for the forthcoming coal tank.

And a L&Y one would be nice too.

That is a couple for Bachmann of course.  Hornby do not make L&Y and LNWR locos (yet??)

[Fazy]

True but does not stop hornby cashing in. And might stir Hornby into action. 

[LCDR]

 I would rather they matched up what they already have rather than swanning off to be deliberately confrontational.

[81F]

 Slatters still make their kits (available from coopercraft) of a variety of MR wagons including a very nice smakk brake.

 

These are very nice easy to build kits so I would endorse Hornby producing some other companies vans. Also if they chose their prototype carefully it could also be offered in grouping and possibly even Br condition.

[96RAF]

What LC&DR said way above about a dearth of brakevans having to be shifted around reminded me of a program on TV some time back, it may even have been Call the Midwive, but in one scene there was a small loco pottering over a terraced street end bridge with a rake of brakevans and I thought at the time, how odd, but now all is revealed by the Master.