Mixed Steam and Diesel consists?

[McSchimmy]

Can I use two different engenies like a steam engine and a diesel together in one consists or do they have both engines to be the same? At the moment I use Honby Select but thinking of buying Elite.

[Howbi]

Yes, you can consist any two locos, the controller only sends signals to motors so body style is irrelevant.......your Select handbook has instructions on how to create and control Double Heading (consist)...........HB

[poliss]

You may have problems matching the speed of the locos. The standard Hornby decoder doesn't support this feature. I don't think the Select supports speed matching either, but the Elite certainly does.

[96RAF]

The Heritage Railway alongside my house often runs double headed steam/DMU/diesel trains so any such combo in prototypical.

[81F]

When double heading with Steam and deisel I think it was best practice to put the diesel at the fron (although I've seen photos the other way round). I think the concern was smuts etc from the seam loco going into the deisels air intakes.

 

Any way back to the models poliss is quite right about speed matching bit then again I have that trouble even between locos of the type beit steam or diesel. I wanted to my dean single to pilot one of my county 4-4-0s but found the county pushed the singles tender off when going round bends.

To try and solve this I attempt to match locos of a similar weight and speed but put the faster one on front. However, it's not just top speed that can be a problem but also differing accelleration.

[poliss]

On my DCC system, you run the locos round the track at different speeds, timing them with the stopwatch facility on the tablet, and the program calculates the speed matching required.

[Captain_Francisco.]

   a)  "You may have problems matching the speed of the locos. The standard Hornby decoder doesn't support this feature. I don't think the Select supports speed matching either, but the Elite certainly does."

 b)   "On my DCC system, you run the locos round the track at different speeds, timing them with the stopwatch facility on the tablet, and the program calculates the speed matching required."

I would like to use "double heading" on a "reverse curve" (space constraints,) approach incline to a R 8008 bridge. I have a 2009 model "Elite," which is "as delivered," no upgrades as yet, and utilise Hornby R 8249 decoders of a similar vintage..

Query:- Does said "Elite" have the facility to automatically adjust the different class operating speeds in a consist, as per my understanding of paragrah a)? Does it "do the necessary"  to the decoders?

Request:- Paragraph b). Could this paragraph be explained a bit further.

Thanking all in advance.

[Fishmanoz]

Franc, might I suggest the first thing you should do is upgrade your Elite to the latest firmware.  Chances are what you have is v1.40 (check the number that comes up on screen at startup) or earlier which is buggy and has a number of features that work differently to the latest.

 

The upgrade procedure is straightforward as long as you follow the procedure in detail.  Chris will probably be along soon and give you a link to his excellent version.  Or you could do a forum search on firmware upgrade.

[Captain_Francisco.]

Thanks for that. I'll follow your advice. It has been "resurrected" after a no. of years packed away. I was unawareof the "buggy" developement. Thanks again Fishmanoz.

[Captain_Francisco.]

Just noted the figures displayed on start up. I have version 1.3. what vintage is that? Perhaps my memory "serves me ill."

[Captain_Francisco.]

Another query: What happens to the "Select Walkabout," of the same vintage, post upgrade?

[Chrissaf]

Because the Elite is computer friendly (has a USB port). The Elite can be firmware upgraded DIY at home from Hornby downloaded files (ignore the instructions included in the download ZIP, they are rubbish.....use the instructions linked below). Version 1.3 is quite old.....my first Elite was version 1.41 and that was 2013.

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The Select however is a 'return to Hornby' firmware upgrade with a normal charge of £15 plus your cost of shipping to them. The £15 charge includes the return shipping costs. You need a 'Returns' number first from Hornby Customer Care....see 'Contact Us' link at the very bottom of the page.

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How to upgrade Elite links as Fishy suggested (look for my posts in the threads).

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Updating Elite firmware (originally written for version 1.43 but still the same for current latest firmware version).

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/updating-firmware-on-the-elite

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Alternative Elite firmware update method if documented method above fails.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/elite-bricked/?p=2/#post-264669

[Captain_Francisco.]

Another query: Does upgrading the "Elite" to version 1.6 have any effect on the use of the "Select Walkabout," which is of the same vintage as the "Elite" with v1.3?

[Captain_Francisco.]

Oops. Skipped "turning the page." Thanks very much Chrissaf, shall attemt upgrade first, and then consider the Select situation.

[Chrissaf]

Current Elite firmware is 1.44.

Version 1.6 firmware is for the Select (current latest)

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For maximum compatibility between Elite and Select I recommend that if the Elite is at revision 1.44 then Select is best at version 1.5 or above. Select at 1.3 should still work with Elite at 1.44 though, just that Select 1.5 is a better firmware than 1.3. Rob (RAF96) can quote chapter and verse on the details regarding what is in the different Select firmware versions. He has posted these before and should be searchable on the forum.

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EDIT:

Search performed......review Rob's reply in this previous thread.

https://www.hornby.com/us-en/forum/select-walkabout-12-v-15-firmware-with-elite/?p=1

 

[96RAF]

Rather than cut and paste all the info about the various controller revision states, just have a read of this page   

http://www.halton96th.org.uk/dcc-downloads.html

 

In summary of previous advice:

Self update your Elite to v1.44. As Fishy says it is reliable if you follow the simple instructions provided by Chris.

Arrange with HCC to send your Select back for update to v1.6. You pay for postage to them and for the update and they pay return postage. Cost around £15.

 

The only difference between a Select standalone and a Select Walkabout is the way it is connected.

Standalone it is a master controller powered from its own power supply and connected direct to the track.

Walkabout it is a slave controller connected to a master Elite (or another Select) controller by way of a special Xpressnet cable and is NOT connected to a power supply or the track.

[Captain_Francisco.]

All noted, absorbed, and much appreciated. Thanks RAF96 & Chrissaf. Time to "get started & the ball rolling!" New territory for me, but from what I have already read on the forum your instructions are comprehensible, concise & easy to follow. Ta muchly.

[Captain_Francisco.]

Alleluia! Success indicated; download completed and "Elite" at start-up now displays "Hornby DCC 1.44." Very pleased. One more query, or possible concern: I read in the advice that the Port should be COMM4 or below. My computer, an HP 2000 369 WM Notebook PC, originally Windows 7, upgraded to Windows 10, allocated COMM7. Nothing ventured & etc..., so I proceeded, and the start-up display is as above. Are "bugs" a virtual "given" using the higher Port No.s, or just a possibility?

[Captain_Francisco.]

Very pleased that the "Select v1.3" will still be useable. Removes some "pressure" and gives one a bit more "time and manoeuvring space," before completing the upgrade.

[Chrissaf]

The fact that your Elite firmware upgrade was successful shows that although Com3 or Com4 is highly desirable, it is not a mandatory requirement. It really does depend upon the PC brand, model & what USB hardware is installed on it and USB firmware etc. Some brands can't communicate with some Hornby DCC controllers with anything other than Com3 or 4 or a USB2.0 port, whilst some other brands can. You are obviously one of the lucky ones.

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Was by chance, the port you used that assigned Com7 a USB3.0 port?

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I think this has been mentioned before, but in case not, just be aware that when using the Select as a "Walkabout" with the Elite. You can only control locos and accessories that are within the Select supported DCC Addressing range i.e Locos 01 to 59 and Accessories 61 - 99.

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So what that means, is that if you had a loco with an Address of 80, it can only be controllable from the Elite controller and not from the Select Walkabout.

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[Captain_Francisco.]

  Thanks very much for that, Chrissaf. Mylaptop has 3 x USB ports. The "Device Manager" does not identify any port with a numeral, but has the descriptions:- "Generic USB Hub," "HUAWEI Mobile Connect - Bus Enumerate Device," "Microsoft Mouse and Ketboard Detection Driver (USB)," "Samsung Mobile USB Composite Device," "Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller, ( x 2)," "Standard OpenHCD USB Host Controller, ( x 3)," USB Composite Device," "USB Composite Device" and "USB Root Hub ( x 5)." The symbol indicated at each of the 3 ports is a USB2.0 type.

  When doing the upgrade the "Port" box opened defaulted at COM4.0, and after clicking the options arrow, displayed COM4.0 & COM7.0. As the "Device Manager" had indicated COM 7.0, I decided to choose same. The PC Type box was defaulted to 1, and as I'd read in the instructions that if any problems were experienced, all one had to do, was progressively keep choosing the lower no., I decided that it was, in all probability the best option, and stuck with "No. 1!" On completion and start-up, "Hornby DCC 1.44" was displayed!

[96RAF]

If you right click on the com7 device listing in Dev Mgr and select Properties - then on one of the tabs (Details?) you will see a drop down listing for the port number which you can force to another number if such number is not in use by something else.

 

The only time a lower com port seems absolutely necessary is when using the controller in Railmaster where port 3 or 4 is preferred.

 

I am glad your Elite update went well, but for interest how long did the update take on setting PC1. Target time is around 2-1/2 to 4 minutes on the best setting. Too high a setting for a particular PC chipset type and the update will fail to complete and too low a setting will take forever to complete. Make a note of the setting and stick it either on the back of the Elite or underneath the laptop for use (if and) when the next firmware update comes out.

[Captain_Francisco.]

Thank you for the info, I shall follow your suggestion. Unfortunately, I did not "stopwatch" time the upgrade, but an estimate would be 15 minutes, ('ish). I have subsequently found a previous post of 22 Feb 2018 where "Cwmiss" had a problem with "Type 1," but was successful selecting "Type 2." I will take note of this.

[Captain_Francisco.]

I am really pleased about the update, thank you all, but I am still curious reference my initial queries:- a) Does the "Elite" automatically adjust" decoder controlled speeds" to match each other when set up as a "consist," and b):- if not, what is the "stopwatch timing of a circuit;" what does it entail? At the moment, I'm not too happy with the idea of delving into CV adjusting for the sake of, in all likelyhood, a temporary "consist." The loco's, to me amyway, run perfectly well "as is." 

[96RAF]

I can briefly answer one of your questions but to explain consisting fully needs a bit of further reading...

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/consisting-information/nmra-dcc-consisting

 

In essence there are various standardised ways of consisting and the one that you can use depends upon what controller you have, which decoders you use and/or if you are using software to run trains.

 

The type of consist (they have categories such as Simple, Advanced, etc) determines how the decoders are linked together, e.g.

1. Both decoders are given the same address in a consist hence they react as one, which can have disadvantages matching speed characteristics with dissimilar locos. This consist address is held by the decoders until de-consisted, whereupon they revert to their individual addresses. CV fiddling is required.

 

2. Each decoder is linked in a consist but they react semi-independantly in that you could operate their sounds and functions individually, but their speed and direction as one. Generally this consist method is held within the controller and can be easier to setup via menus.

 

3. Within software where the decoders are linked only within the software not by the decoder or controller. The advantage here is you can consist locos even if their decoders do not support consisting. Setup is generally by clicking check boxes on screen.

 

How you actually set these various consist up is beyond the scope of this explanation as it depends again upon the decoders, controller and/or software packege you intend to use.

 

You can of course (dexterity permitting) run a manual consist in that each loco is run indiviually as you would a banking loco. This allows you to better match speeds, by setting up each locos speed curve to match the other., which brings us to your other question.

 

Speed matching:

You set up a length of track in a circle, warm up your loco and time how long it takes to complete xxx numbers of laps at a set speed. Repeat for the other loco at the same throttle setting, then get into the nitty gritty of adjusting speed curves (if your decoder supports this) to get both locos running at the same pace for the same throttle settings. A simple way of doing this is to run both (DCC) locos on the same track and fiddle with their settings on the main (if possible) until they match pace as best as possible up the whole speed curve. Unfortunately you have to get into CVs to do this fiddling unles you use something like Decoder-Pro (part of JMRI) which has a graphic interface similar to a music mixer/graphic equaliser that allows you to move slides to vary the speed curve, with knowing anything about CVs, etc.

 

Consisting several locos can become a whole new hobby.