Victorian 19th century Loco's and coaches

[Percybigun]

I know theres a few already available but i'm sure theres a market for many more loco's such as:

-locomotion?

-gwr city of truro

-singles (stirling no 1 railroad/affordable, cornwall, midland spinner etc), ideally with a better chassis than previous hornby singles!

coaches:

various 4 wheelers & 6 wheelers as per ratio kits

gnr/ner coaches as per ian kirk kits, and especially the NER dynamometer car!

 

[81F]

 GWR Cities (including City of Truro) are/have already made by Bachmann so they would be a waste of effort

 

However,I'd buy a Bulldog,  Duke of Cornwall or Aberdare from anyone if the price was right. Although I would prefer 1920s/30s condition.

 

A Midland Spinner would also be nice but I'd settle for the current hornby single chassis if it kept the price down and made the loco heavier.

 

As to coaches, I'd like to see some LBSCR coaches I have loads of terriers and an E2 and only one brake van for them to pull

[LCDR]

 There have been very few genuine Victorian period railway vehicles made as models, even those based on locomotives introduced before 1901 have been made in later 20th century form. Nearly everything is more appropriate in post Grouping colours.

 

Apart from the 'Rocket' made by Triang many years ago and now no longer made and hard to come by, the oldest prototype is the LBSCR A1 , which date from 1872 and made by Hornby but are in fact in the A1X rebuilds dating from 1911. Even the one in SECR livery has the A1X boiler and smokebox.

The Caledonian single is an 1886 design, the GW 3031 class (Lord of the Isles) date from 1894, the J15 appeared in 1883 but pretty well everything else is 20th Century.

[Mick38]

I would love to see an accurate version of the GWR 4 wheel coach, and a brake to match. The short Railroad ones scream “toy”.

[LCDR]

 I have a book written by the Rev Edward Beal many years ago called "Modelling the Old Time Railways" which discusses the  railways of the 19th and early 20th Centuries (pre World War 1) and makes the following points.

 

Locomotives were smaller and trains were shorter, composed mostly of 4 and 6 wheel carriages, so are easier to accomodate on smaller layouts.

 

Consequenly stations were more compact

 

Trains were genuinely more colourful and attractive.

 

There is certainly a need for more accurate models from this particular era, especially carriages and goods wagons .

[Fazy]

Bachmanns new Midlands 1p 0-4-4t date from 1881 to 1900 so they fit the bill. 

[Fazy]

Also the Midland 0-6-0t half cab and midland3f 0-6-0 date back to 18 80's 

[LCDR]

Victoria was  Queen from 1837 when railways were in their infancy until 1901 when railways were arguably at the peak of their maturity and success. In that period, usually referred to as the Victorian era, there were many changes, especially the expansion of the network, increases in size and speed of locomotives and trains, and improvements to operating procedures and safety systems.

 

The period 1837 to 1860 was very much one of experiment and innovation, railways were immature and the engineering was crude. The 1840s were the period of the Railway Mania with many lines proposed as 'get rich quick' schemes and plenty which were never actually built. Trains were small, mostly composed of short four wheel carriages, locomotives were usually tiny single driver machines little better than Stephenson's Rocket . Travel by train was a novelty only enjoyed by the rich. Accidents were common.

 

 

After 1860 things started to get more recognisable. 6 wheel carriages were beginning to replace the little huts on wheels from the earlier era. Locomotives with larger boilers, and some with 4 driving wheels, were becoming common place, although many railways still preferred single driver locomotives for the expresses, however these were much more robust. Train operation was still a bit hit & miss, and safety standards poor. Many quite serious accidents occured culminating in the horrific accident near Armagh in 1889. The government stepped in afterwards to force the railways to adopt safe operating practices.

 

From 1890 onwards the railways entered into their Golden age. Pullman trains became established, bogie carriages started to appear, even on local services, facilities such as lavatories, dining cars and corridors were included in long distance trains. Speeds increased and larger locomotives were being used (4-4-0 for passenger and 0-6-0 for goods) . The final decade of the Victorian era was one of maximum use of the railway by most sections of society.

 

Each period was different and deserves being treated as a seperate era.

[The son of Triangman]

What I would like to see is something from the early days.  A Rainhill Trials set would be good with fishbelly track and pointwork.

[Mick38]

Hooray! Hattons are to produce a range of 4 and 6 wheel coaches! Can barely wait. And congratulations to Hattons for taking this step.

[walkingthedog]

They announced them in early October, caused quite a lot of excitement. 

[LCDR]

/media/tinymce_upload/801ecf86b1f788e2547b5b214734caa5.JPGNow that Hornby will be re-introducing a new version of Rocket is it too much to hope that perhaps the other contenders at the Rainhill Trials might follow?  (Sans Pareil, Novelty and Perseverence). And how about some extra rolling stock too, the Second and Third class passenger carriages at very least?

 

These primitives do have a remarkable charm. I recall seeing 'Planet' at  MOSI a few years (above) ago and was impressed at how tiny it was, compared to modern rolling stock. No problems with First Radius curves here indeed!

[Fazy]

I do wonder if the new rocket would lend itself to some butchery. drop the cylinders to make it   the  rebuilt version paint it green and we could have up to seven running around and model the Leverpool  to Manchester Railway. 

[LCDR]

Just in case you are interested - Liverpool and Manchester locomotives the first dozen and later developments

 

No 1 “Rocket” 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1829, sold  1837

No 2 “Meteor” 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, sold1837

No 3 “Comet” 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, sold1836

No4  “Arrow”  0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, sold1840

No 5  “Dart” 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, scrapped 1833

No 6  “Phoenix” 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, scrapped 1833

No 7  “North Star” 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, sold 1833

No 8  “Northumbrian” 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, scrapped 1836

No 9  “Planet” 2-2-0 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, scrapped 1840

No 10  “Majestic” 2-2-0 or 0-2-2 built by Robert Stephenson 1830, scrapped 1833

No 11  “Mercury” 2-2-0 built by Robert Stephenson 1831, rebuilt as 2-2-2 1833 scrapped 1840

No 12 “Mars” 2-2-0 built by Robert Stephenson 1831, rebuilt as 2-2-2 1834 sold 1839

 

They continued to add 2-2-0s until 1834 when No 36 "Swiftsure" appeared. Then they bought 2-2-2s instead. Starting with No 33 "Patentee" in 1834.this type continued to be added to stock up to and including No 100 "Condor" in 1846

 

In 1834 they started to add 0-4-0 locomotives to stock for goods work starting with No 13 "Samson" followed by No 14   "Goiliath", & No 23 "Atlas"  , 25 "Milo" appeared in 1832.0-4-0s continued to be added up to and including No 40 "Eclipse"  . After that the 0-4-2 type was introduced for goods work from No 44 "Thunderer" in 1836 up to  No 106 "Osprey" in 1846 and this series included No 57 "Lion" which has been preserved.

[Fazy]

A L&MR could be a lovely little layout with plenty of developments of locomotive power to be seen. downside it would need a lot of research and scratch building. 

[LCDR]

Track might be a problem if you wanted to keep it accurate. As originally laid the Liverpool and Manchester Railway used 35 lb. fish belly rail on stone block sleepers (except across Chat Moss where Stephenson was desperate to save weight). The whole line used this method until 1857 when it was relaid on wooden sleepers with 50 lb. rail.

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Train set track uses code 100 flat bottom (Vignoles) rail which is 2.5mm high, equivalent to 7.5 inches at scale. Although invented in 1837 by Charles Vignoles it was not used in the UK for many years, and then only as light section on industrial and light railways. 7.5 inch high rail is approximately the same as modern 140 lb rail found only on the best Railroads in the USA. Vignoles rail became the standard in the USA very early as it allowed rails to be spiked directly to the ties (sleepers) so was cheap and easy to lay.

[Rana Temporia]

When I was much younger (1970s) some of the stone blocks as used on the Bolton and Leigh railway were still there and clearly visible on the old embankment at Chequerbent that was cut by the building of the M61. I'm not even sure if you can get access to it now, the public footpath to the A6 from that location has been blocked off and is now too overgrown to get down anyway. 

[LCDR]

I am amazed at the amount of work needed to lay the track using stone blocks. Each block had to be quarried, carefully chiseled to a rectangle, drilled to accept the fixing for the chair. All done by hand with no machinery.  the railway would need thousands of them . They still appear in walls near the railways where they were first used.  Wooden sleepers would have been so much easier..

 

The use of stone blocks goes back to the horse drawn railway period. Horse hooves would have smashed the sleepers very quickly so it had to be something that avoided being in the centre of the track but held the rails accurately to gauge and would not move and stone blocks embedded in the ground were the best idea. 

 

The pioneering days are very interesting, but very badly recorded. There was no photography and a lot of stuff was lost over time.

[96RAF]

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Can’t upload any more locos from Beamish as the file sizes are too large.

 

[Modelnut19]

At last weekend's (25ht to 26th January) Erith Model Railway Show, there was a great layout using kit-built engines but I thought still OO scale. My brother commented that it is probably an period of limited interest but some of the locos were quite special and unique. I guess Stephenson's Rocket is an exception because it is so well-known.

[Rana Temporia]

I just bought an old book and on the back cover there is another listed that may be of interest to the readers of this thread. "Nineteenth Century Railway Drawings in 4mm Scale", by Alan Prior and published by David and Charles presumably in the 1980s if it's contemporary with the one I bought. It's not particularly one of my areas of interest so I won't be paying the £25 to £60 being asked for second hand copies but it may be useful to someone else (or Hornby) to research some of the locos and stock that could potentially be produced. 

In case anyone is interested the book I bought is "Fifteen Inch Gauge Railways" , by David Mosley and Peter van Zeller which at first glance looks to be very good and actually includes the pleasure lines at Rhyl, Southport etc. That a lot of these books leave out. Looks like I will have some happy reading in the near future. 

[LCDR]

I have a book by Hamilton Ellis entitled Railway Carriages of the British Isles from 1830 to 1914 which includes drawings (mostly side view only) of early railway carriages. It was published in 1965 and has a good selection of photographs and good descriptions of how carriages developed. 

 

Another very useful book is The British Steam Railway Locomotive 1825 - 1925 by E. L Ahrons, published originally in 1927 but reprinted in 1987 60 years later! It is profusely illustrated with line drawings and other illustrations and is a facinating insight into locomotive development.

 

The biggest gap in knowledge is the development of the goods wagon. The British Goods Wagon from 1887 to the Present Day  by Essery, Rowland and Steel appeared in 1970 but there is no comprehensive study of wagons before 1887. There is an historical survey however it does not delve deeply into the development before the 1890s. There have been studies carried out by the Historical Model Railway Society, but these have not been collected into a single book.  The North East Coal Chaldron wagon has its own study however. 

 

There is a useful album by Gareth Rees  Early Railway Prints, which includes contemporary art prints some in colour, depicting early trains and vehicles, but are undoubtedly not technical drawings and cannot be relied upon for accuracy.