Black 5 Class 45116 - R3385TTS

[PJ_model_trains]

Just purchased the Class 5 - 45116 - R3385TTS - What a cracking loco

But it is not in the RM list of locos yet, hence reason listed here not in DCC forum.

I have emailed HRMS

I did download again RM prior to contacting them.

Hopefully it will be added 'soon'

[96RAF]

Looks like you will have to hand list it for now PJ.

 

Unfortunately the Black 5 will not be available as a TTS retro-kit, disappointing many people I reckon.

 

Rob

[PJ_model_trains]

It is not the kit I want it is the loco in the RM loco's list 

At present it is sat on my program track waiting patiently.  😆

[PJ_model_trains]

The loco is now in the list in RM but I am experiencing a number of issues.

 

Before going into detail regarding the problems can I ask...

 

HAS ANYONE ELSE PURCHSED THIS LOCO?

Hornby Black 5 - TTS Sound loco - R3385T

 

If so have you had any issues?

 

If you have one can I ask if you will read the CV's and confirm what CV7 states?

 

Does it read a TTS Sound decoder or a Factory fitted 4 Function decoder?

 

Thanks guys

 

(Admin you may choose to move this to DCC forum as it is no longer a RM issue)

[Howbi]

PJ.........did you read this from Admin 2 days ago....."In many cases such issues can be easily resolved by a simple telephone call to Hornby. Therefore, if you do experience any problems when operating locomotives fitted with the Hornby TTS decoder, please contact the Hornby Helpline on 01843 223525 (ask for Option 2) and they will be more than happy to resolve any issues you may be having." ........HB

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi HB

 

No I didn't see the message, I have just been going round in circles, with the loco issues, my own health not helping. 

 

First the loco wasn't in the loco list in RM. (I had done a download) So I contacted HRMS who made it available, having discussed the loco in the list I did chat with them about the decoder issue, they were very helpful, as far as they could be. They concluded it may be a faulty decoder.

 

Thanks for the details provided HB

 

There are many issues with this loco...

- it runs a little and stops

- stutters starting

- sound will work but it cuts out when loco is requested to move

- Decoder cv reads Factory fitted 4 Function decoder? Not TTS Sound decoder. Therefore sound cv's etc not showing although there is sound. 

 

I have set CV 8 to 8, tried CV150 to 1 and back to 0

 

Track is clean and all other locos run on it without ant issues

[St1ngr4y]

Loco decoders are recognised by the values contained in CVs 7 (Version) and 8 (Manufacturer). All Hornby decoders have the Manufacturer set to 48 in CV8. The version numbers in CV7 define the type of decoder, and, therefore, which CVs are used by each type of decoder and for what purpose. Information about decoders is held in the file "decoders.en" in the Railmaster folder. The Hornby decoders currently defined in that file are as follows:-

 

Version                    Decoder type

 

001-009                   TTS Steam

 

11                             R8215 4-function

 

131-132                   R8249 4-function

 

10                             R8245 Sapphire

 

12                             Factory fitted 4-function

 

120-130                   TTS Diesel

 

 

Now, PJ's question a couple of posts back is highly relevent because his TTS Black 5 decoder is showing a value of 12 in CV7, which causes RM to not match with the TTS Steam range 001-009, but then to match with the "Factory Fitted 4-function". Now is PJ's Black 5 decoder the only one to have 12 in CV7? - it would be most helpful if even one person owning such a loco could tell us the value of CV7 in their loco. If ALL Black 5 TTS decoders have been made with 12 in CV7, then RM will have difficulty distinguishing between that decoder and one of these "Factory fitted 4-function" decoders, whatever they may be. Does anyone have any idea in which locos these are fitted, if any?

 

Ray

 

PS     PJ, from this point of view, the relevance still relates to Railmaster, rather than DCC in general, so this thread should stay here.

[PJ_model_trains]

Thank you Ray, the detailed information you have provided is very helpful.

 

I am also pleased you agree that it would be very helpful if at least one other member has the Black 5 TTS

Loco # R3385T

 

I cannot understand why the CV 7 is showing a 4 Function decoder, version 12. When I purchased a Loco with TTS Sound, I naturally expect it to confirm it is a TTS decoder. But it is possible, for some unknown reason that there is a fault and that it is showing the, Factory fitted 4-function decoder in error. 

 

If another member has the R3385T - Black 5 and can read the CV's and confirm CV7 it would be most helpful at this stage.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ.........did you read this from Admin 2 days ago....."In many cases such issues can be easily resolved by a simple telephone call to Hornby. Therefore, if you do experience any problems when operating locomotives fitted with the Hornby TTS decoder, please contact the Hornby Helpline on 01843 223525 (ask for Option 2) and they will be more than happy to resolve any issues you may be having." ........HB

I have contacted Hornby and am presently in discussion with them to see if the issues can be resolved.

Meanwhile in case anyone tries to telephone Hornby support on the number above, it includes a typing error, easy done. The correct number is 01843 233525 (Option 2)

Hopefully the Black 5 decoder and other issues can be solved.

 

[96RAF]

Ray

There is some confusion about CV7 that is currently used by RM to identify a decoder type for purpose of calling up the associated table of CVs and this is leading to false ID of some decoders including the Black 5.

 

CV7 as specified by NMRA is the decoder version and is actually the decoder PIC code version which is/will be suppemented by other CVs - see later.

 

CV7 - Value 12 is the latest TTS steam decoder but currently only the Black 5 TTS carries this ID, hence the false ID by RM as a 4-function decoder. Other steamers will show a different value and can also lead to confused readback.

 

CV7 - Value 132 is the latest TTS diesel decoder (Class 08 and/or 31 maybe) which unfortunately presently coincides with the value for R8249. This value will be changed to 133 for future production R8249s. Other diesels will show different values again causing confusion in some cases.

 

CV8 is the definite Manufacturer ID according to the NMRA listing. Hornby being 048 as stated.

 

These supporting CVs are said to be CV156/157/158/159 and which may or may not read back a value at present and which may or may not be mentiioned in the decoder documention in the near future as this apparently is an on-going  development according to Hornby and as always production documentation always lags developement. - e.g. where are the service sheets for all the new locos.

 

What are these supporting CVs...

CV156 will be the loco ID associated with an R-number or name. That will be good if you have lost the box and the most useful to HRMS.

 

CV157 will identify the same loco for range (Railroad/Main e.g Flying Scotsman variants) as these will likely have different motor types and need different setting up. Also useful to HRMS for scale speed ranging.

 

CV158 will be the sound file version as improvements could be made to the range in future production batches - e.g.different engine type, various horns, whistles, etc and/or other widgets yet to be released. My wishlist widget was rail clack for steamers.

 

CV159 will be the sound code type identifier - i.e. the basic sound file specific to that loco type e.g Class 31, Class A4, etc.

 

As told to me the value that may/may not be read from these supporting CVs  is not set in concrete yet, but the process is leading towards TTS decoders being fully customised to a particular loco with respect to model range (Railroad/Main Range) and motor type, etc so that the model drives properly straight out of the box without the user having to fiddle unecesaarilly with CVs, etc. This can only be a good thing worth looking forward to.

 

If you can read a value from any of these other CVs then it means something to someone at Hornby but there isn't a simple overarching table they can publish to let everyone else know what these values represent. My sympathy goes to HRMS who have to code this into RM.

Rob

.

 

[St1ngr4y]

CV7 - Value 132 is the latest TTS diesel decoder (Class 08 and/or 31 maybe) which unfortunately presently coincides with the value for R8249. This value will be changed to 133 for future production R8249s. Other diesels will show different values again causing confusion in some cases.

 

Hi Rob,

This seems to be an almighty cockup by Hornby. When they manufactured the Black 5 TTS decoder with version 12, and a TTS diesel with version 132, how on earth were they unaware of existing decoders using these values? It's all very well saying that future R8249s will use version 133, but what about existing R8249 users. Will RM tell these users that those decoders are TTS diesels?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

This could be a costly mistake, one Hornby cannot afford.

 

It is possible many locos will get returned, if many have been sold!

Response to the request for replies from other users has not been productive so far.

But there has to be sales of this loco, as Hornby and retailers took pre-orders for the loco.

 

Details of the issues and videos of the problems getting the loco to work have been sent to Hornby Technical. HRMS have already said it could be an issue with the decoder, it is looking like it could be an issue one way or another!  I will wait to hear from Hornby but things are not looking to good at present. 

 

[AyrshireJambo]

Hi

I have the R3385tts Black 5 and have uploaded the latest version of RM.  All is well on the sound front for me with all sound functions working correctly and the model running sweetly.  If you are having problems with yours I would suggest that it needs replacing

Hope this helps

Bryce

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi

I have the R3385tts Black 5 and have uploaded the latest version of RM.  All is well on the sound front for me with all sound functions working correctly and the model running sweetly.  If you are having problems with yours I would suggest that it needs replacing

Hope this helps

Bryce

 

Good to hear Bryce

Can you read your CV's and confirm what comes up for CV7 please.

Many thanks

[AyrshireJambo]

Hi

The value for CV7 is "12" with a description as "Factory fitted 4-function".  I guess Hornby haven't got round to changing the description to match the loco?

Bryce

[96RAF]

...mostly for Ray and PJ

 

I suppose the situation came about due to existing CV7 not being adequate enough to fully control/describe configuration of a decoder, so as TTS development progressed a way had to be found to put this in place within NMRA rules.

 

If you want a decoder like TTS to be customised to a specific loco type and even to an R-number then you have to expand into these supplementary CV range which NMRA allocate for Manufacturer use.

 

As CV7 is the PIC code version, not the decoder version and this code can change over time then it is reasonable to note that the code can be installed to more than one decoder type, hence the other CVs to take this definition further. We already know that TTS decoders are essentially the same basic decoder as R8249 and more than likely the 4-pin and 6-pin decoders also. Upissue of PIC code is natural progress like any other software and would not usually be back applied to decoders in the field, not is there any need for such upgrade if the decoder is working to spec.

 

PJ - I don't see why it should provoke a rush of returns unless a loco/decoder is actually faulty. The fact that RM reports the decoder type based solely on this version number is now wrong as it is based on previous data about the decoders.

 

There will obviously have to be some future work by RM to expand pre-reading of the supplementary CVs in conjunction with CV7 before the correct CV skeleton list can be populated as these newer decoders come on to the market. This short list in itself is only a convenience to preclude having to read all 1024 CVs and to load the correct desciption for the CV. If left to it RM will read all the CVs and list the associated value, but you wont get the fancy description.

 

Ray - you say why did Hornby not see this coming, my personal opinion is they probably think as I do that the average user will never read nor care about CV7. It is only when a software package comes into play that uses these numbers for other purposes that the problem comes to light. Hence the need for the software to continually chase the hardware changes as new data becomes available.

 

As I see it who cares what numbers are in what CV as long as the newer decoder better suits a particular loco. If a software package uses these numbers then it needs to keep pace with and where possible pre-empt these PIC code changes before they hit the shops.

 

The situation with the way TTS is going is not I feel too far removed from the Athern and other Amercian manufacturers system whereby you remove the existing PCB in toto from a loco and replace it with a sound decoder PCB. The TTS method is not the same but the underlying principle of a decoder customise to a particular loco is much akin, but at a very much less cost.

Rob

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi

The value for CV7 is "12" with a description as "Factory fitted 4-function".  I guess Hornby haven't got round to changing the description to match the loco?

Bryce

 

Thank you Bryce

When you read your CV's how many can you actually see in the results?

I have written the read CV's to a PDF file and have sent it to Hornby technical, mine only shows 9 basic ones.

I cannot see any of the sound CV's etc they all show N/A

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

@RAF96

 

CV's is not the only issue with my loco but, lets just stick with this subject for now.

 

If when reading the CV's CV7 shows 4 Function decoder, then if others get the same result as I do then you cannot see all other CV's, none of the sound or other CV's are showing just 9 basic ones.

 

There are a couple of concerns regarding the CV issue, one is the ones not seen as mentioned above, the other is that if a person wants to sell a loco at a later date it does not show the correct CV's then as a result it is immediately devalued.

 

I will leave things at that for now, Ray will no dount have comments regarding the comments above.

 

That said I cannot agree with your comments Rob that... As I see it who cares what numbers are in what CV as long as the newer decoder better suits a particular loco.

 

I think the wording could have been put better than it is, I care Rob, and the decoder that is in the loco is not showing TTS loco and as a result not showing the CV's I would want to see and maybe want to change. The decoder therefore does not better suit this particular loco!

[96RAF]

PJ 

My apologies if my poor choice of wording offended you - that certainly wasn't my intention. I was trying to get across that it doesn't matter what number is in a CV if the end user gets the intended output from the decoder. After all we usually don't know the inner workings of our home electronics and as long as it works as advertised we are happy.

 

As to the CV not being there. They are still there - try reading them direct with an Elite and you will see whatever value is stored. It is just that currently RM uses the value in CV7 to load a custom range of CVs to read and if it does not load the correct set then it wont go  looking for those outwith the loaded range.

 

I have had RM misread a decoder version many a time and it has gone on to read and return every single CV value but without the custom description. Irritating I know but an RM problem in the end driven by change in how Hornby is loading new code into its decoders as the world goes round.

 

Rob

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Rob,

If you could explain the difference between a PIC code version and a decoder version, I may be able to comment further. What does PIC stand for?

Like PJ, I don't understand your reasoning here. TTS decoders and Railmaster are both Hornby products. Do these two parts of the company not communicate with each other?

CV7 being an 8-bit byte, the range of values which can be held there is 0-255 - i.e. it could cater for 256 different decoders within a manufacturer. OK if this isn't enough, why not have, say, two codes for TTS. One for steam, the other for diesel. Then use those manufacturer specific CVs you mentioned to further define them to individual RxxxxT locos?

P.S. edit - what if you have an Elink? You can only then use RM to read the CVs.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

@RAF96

Apologies accepted Rob, as you say a poor choice of words, but I am not offended, just frustrated.

 

In reply to your second sentence Rob you state...  I was trying to get across that it doesn't matter what number is in a CV if the end user gets the intended output from the decoder. That is the problem, I don't get the intended output! 

 

You also say... As to the CV not being there. They are still there - try reading them direct with an Elite and you will see whatever value is stored. I am a RailMaster PC user, I do not have an Elite. 

 

Then you say... RM uses the value in CV7 to load a custom range of CVs to read and if it does not load the correct set then it wont go  looking for those outwith the loaded range. Precisely, because it reads CV7 as Version 12, it ignores all the CV's we expect a Version 001-009 to read, hence I get the N/A reply.

 

I have to say, I agree with Ray.  I don't understand. TTS decoders and Railmaster are both Hornby products. Do these two parts of the company not communicate with each other?

 

@AyrshireJambo has comfirmed he has the Black 5 and his works but he also confirms... The value for CV7 is "12" with a description as "Factory fitted 4-function". I have asked him if he would read his CV's and confirm what he can see. If he is using RM on PC or Laptop I expect him to confirm it only shows 9 values and misses all the important sound ones, because it is seeing CV7 as Version 12 - Factory Fitted 4-function decoder. You already know what can be seen on the Elite. They are there but not showing due to an error in the decoder. 

 

It therefore seems someone as made a big mistake with the sound decoder, the question would be is it because Hornby and HRMS have not consulted each other, tghe second question is what happens next?

 

I am waiting a reply from Hornby with the details and videos sent to them yesterday.

[96RAF]

Ray

PIC is loosely speaking the decoder equivalent of Windows - i.e. the basic machine code the decoder runs on. This code is obviously in various versions to run various decoders and can also be at various revision states for each decoder as say new features are introduced or the code is changed to fix extant faults.

 

Essentially there is a programmable PIC chip on the decoder to which a code is written telling that chip what to do in certain circumstance. Such chips are used all over the place and form a hobby of their own - drones and many other electronic gadgets. Your controllers have PIC chips.

 

I would say a decoder version tells of the model such as you listed way above earlier, whereas the PIC version tells of the code that decoder type is running. Take the Select as an example we see 15-30-03 at startup. From this we know its a Select already and we know 15 is the firmware version and 30 is the hardware version, so the analogy is - 30 is akin to the decoder version and 15 is akin to the PIC code version.

 

CV7 - why Hornby can't run within the 0-255 range I have no idea. One would think there was enough slack to do that. It may be that the PIC code ID is so particular to a specific loco that the supporting CVs are just a handy way of diseminating that difference to a user by way of what they read from CV7. Honestly I don't know and that assumption is pure guesswork.

 

Although RM is a Hornby product, as has been said many times before on the forum, it was written by a third party software house for Hornby and it is supported by that third party collectively known as HRMS.

 

As far as I know there is no direct brand connection between the two companies other than a commercial arrangement to write and support the RM product, but obviously they have to talk to each other and liaise about all manner of things including new features, amending the database, compliance for any controller or decoder changes, etc

 

There is bound to be a lag between what Hornby the 'prime contractor ' is doing before it filters down to HRMS the 'sub-contractor' and in this case the recent changes to TTS decoders (due in the main to people using other make controllers having problems with TTS) seem to be running well ahead of RM. If I were a manufacturer I wouldn't be passing anything to a sub-contractor until that product was solid.

 

Rob

 

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Rob,

That now makes a bit more sense. The use of "supporting CVs" which you mentioned a couple of pages back also makes sense - but why just one byte (0-255) for the type to map to the Rxxxx number? If two bytes were allocated, then 65536 locos could be catered for.

But for PJs problem, all that HRMS can do now is to replace the definition for version 12 Factory fitted 4-function with a definition for a TTS steam loco. If there are any RM users out there with the version 12 Factory fitted 4-function decoders installed in any of their locos, then they will still be able to access the CVs they need to.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hopefully we can get the decoder version right and know that issue is sorted with access to the TTS CV's.

Then the other issues with the loco can be looked into.

[96RAF]

It would probably set HRMS off running in the right direction if someone with a code 12 basic decoder and/or code 12 TTS Black 5 reported the problem in using the help facility in RM.

 

This is what NMRA says about.CV7...

Configuration Variable 7 - Manufacturer Version Number This is reserved for the manufacturer to store information regarding the version of the decoder.

Interesting that it says decoder version not decoder PIC code version.

CVs 112-256 are stated as 'reserved for manufacturer use'.

Not even Hornby has 65k loco types in inventory Ray.

Rob