British HO Scale Trains

[Vilhelm22]

Hi, I'm looking for some British trains in HO scale such as the Flying Scotsman and Mallard, hopefully with LNER coaches or possibly Pullman ones to go with it.  You can see the list of what I do have in a topic in Hornby International:

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/trains-from-the-mid-to-late-20th-century/?p=1

I just want a few well known British trains to run as well as the foreign ones I have - I don't want it to look completely foreign!

Vilhelm

[Wolseley]

I can't see any British manufacturer wanting to produce H0 models, nor can I see any manufacturer from elsewhere wanting to produce British outline.  I think your only chance of getting what you want would be to seek out a Rivarossi Royal Scot or a Fleischmann Warship (or, if they appeal to you, some of the Trix offerings of the late 1950s/early 60s) on the second-hand market.

 

00 is so well established that British H0 is not a commercial proposition.

[Vilhelm22]

I've actually got the Fleischmann Warship 4246, but I'll try and get my hands on a Rivarossi Royal Scot.

[Wolseley]

There are three rather nice looking Rivarossi Royal Scots on eBay at the moment.

[JeremiahBunyan]

Only heard of Atlas Verlag making a Class 81 as a static model. I do think there's other static models in HO scale that can be motorized.

[LCDR]

 Over the years there has been a few British outline models in HO but they are few and far between.

 

Lima made a Class 33 Bo-Bo and matching Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages and three different goods wagons, also a LMS 4F 0-6-0. The class 55 Deltic was to be next but the scale was changed half way through tooling. That is why Hornby's RailRoad range Deltic still runs on HO scale bogies!

Playcraft (Jouef) made a Class 21 Bo-Bo and Mark 1s somewhat cruder than the Lima ones, but did include a working TPO coach.

Hornby AchO has a USA 0-6-0T which would pass as a SR versions with a repaint, and someone made a Dutch version of the 350hp LMS / EE 0-6-0 DE that could be adapted.

The Rivarossi LMS Royal Scot and matching LMS carriages have already been mentioned, probably the best HO model for British modelling, I would love one. The Fleischmann Warship and Bullied carriages were also pretty good, I have these. They advertised a Bullied Pacific, but it never materialised.

 

British Trix made their stock in a hybrid scale about half way between OO and HO. (3.8mm to 1 foot or 1:80th scale)  The range included EM1 electric , BR 7MT  Britannia, BR 5MT 4-6-0, GWR 66xx, SR E2 0-6-0T, BR Warship B-B and BR Western C-C as well as a Ruston 0-6-0 diesel, and a Trans Pennine DMMU with matching carriages and wagons. Later models including the AL1, A2 and A3 came out in true OO.

 

With a bit of ingenuity a Briitish  HO layout could be created with some of this stuff.

[Wolseley]

I have a couple of Trix models: a Warship and the ex-GWR 0-6-2T.  Trix used a rather elastic scale, which is probably somewhere in the region of 1:80 but does vary, even on different parts of the same model.  The Warship I would guess is close to H0 and the 0-6-2T a bit closer to 00, but still a bit undersized for 00.

 

I would love to have a Trix Britannia and a Class 5 (or Class V as Trix called it) but every time I see one for sale it's for more money than I have to spend at the time.

 

Trix locomotives run and perform well but, compared to, for example, present day Hornby, their wheel standards and detailing leave a bit to be desired - it's a bit like comparing a Dublo "Duchess of Atholl" to a Hornby "City of Birmingham".

 

I did not mention the Lima or Jouef offerings, as they were rather toylike when they were new, let alone now.  The Lima coaches weren't that bad though.

 

And you're right about the Hornby AcH0 0-6-0, that would be worth tracking down.

[Wolseley]

And you're right about the Hornby AcH0 0-6-0, that would be worth tracking down.

I just realised after posting that Rivarossi have that one in their current range.

[The Doc]

The Rivarossi Royal Scot and matching coaches are absolutely beautiful to look at, but aren't exactly HO scale.  Like the Trix models mentioned they are somewhere between 3.5 (HO) and 4mm (OO) to the foot.  They look fine on their own, but are distinctly bigger than true HO (e.g. the Fleischmann Warship and Bulleid coaches), and noticeably smaller than OO.  It is surprising what a differene that 0.5mm to the foot makes.

 

But if you want to run them alongside HO European models of protoypes built to a larger loading gauge, and aren't worried about authenticity, they look fine.

 

Incidentally the Rivarossi USA S100 0-6-0 tank is HO and several ran on Southern Railway during WW2 and possibly later.  And what's more, it's a brilliant little model that runs beautifully.

[Postman Prat]

 The YankyTanks worked Southampton Docks until 1963 ish. When diesels took over the dock work several went into Departmental servics and some lasted until the end of steam

[bill7437]

YES the first models of Eurostar were made by Jouef  in France (and also under Jouef contract in Slovenia by Mehano ) in HO scale. They were marketed in the UK by Hornby in the simplified form with Mabuchi motor and plastic pantographs, this version also marketed by Lima in the UK somewhat later. Jouef sold the simplified form as a train set and also a version with buhler motor, four axle drive, seats and operating pantographs in their domestic market.

[bill7437]

 Over the years there has been a few British outline models in HO but they are few and far between.

 

Lima made a Class 33 Bo-Bo and matching Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages and three different goods wagons, also a LMS 4F 0-6-0. The class 55 Deltic was to be next but the scale was changed half way through tooling. That is why Hornby's RailRoad range Deltic still runs on HO scale bogies!

Playcraft (Jouef) made a Class 21 Bo-Bo and Mark 1s somewhat cruder than the Lima ones, but did include a working TPO coach.

Hornby AchO has a USA 0-6-0T which would pass as a SR versions with a repaint, and someone made a Dutch version of the 350hp LMS / EE 0-6-0 DE that could be adapted.

The Rivarossi LMS Royal Scot and matching LMS carriages have already been mentioned, probably the best HO model for British modelling, I would love one. The Fleischmann Warship and Bullied carriages were also pretty good, I have these. They advertised a Bullied Pacific, but it never materialised.

 

British Trix made their stock in a hybrid scale about half way between OO and HO. (3.8mm to 1 foot or 1:80th scale)  The range included EM1 electric , BR 7MT  Britannia, BR 5MT 4-6-0, GWR 66xx, SR E2 0-6-0T, BR Warship B-B and BR Western C-C as well as a Ruston 0-6-0 diesel, and a Trans Pennine DMMU with matching carriages and wagons. Later models including the AL1, A2 and A3 came out in true OO.

 

With a bit of ingenuity a Briitish  HO layout could be created with some of this stuff.

 

[bill7437]

The someone referred to as to maker of LMS 0-6-0 diesel shunter in Ho scale is Roco -made in NS livery for the Dutch market.

[The Doc]

I believe that the Roco version of the class 08 has more recently been produced in a Victoria Railways (Australian) livery but will need some modification as it doesn't have a UK style bufferbeam.

[UICman]

Reasons for “OO” 1:76  Ragioni per ""OO" 1:76

-Legacy of older modellers wishing to add to it by keeping the same over scale.-Lascito di modellisti più anziani che desiderano aggiungere tenendo la stessa sovra scala.

Reasons for “HO” 1:87   Ragioni per “HO” 1:87

-Correct scale and gauge relationship.         (4'8-1/2")*3.5mm/foot=16.5mm.-Giusta relazione tra scala e scartamento.    1435mm/87=16.5mm.

-Hence correct relationship of gauge, dimensions and buffer spacing aimed for. No more narrow gauge look of 4'1-1/2”.-Quindi corretti rapporti di scartamento, dimensioni e distanza tra respingenti. Non più l'aspetto di scartamento ridotto di 1257mm.

-No need to resort to larger unusual track gauges such EM and Protofour, etc. to “correct” this.-Nessun bisogno di ricorrere a strani scartamenti come EM e Protofour, ecc. per “correggere” questo.

-Double track spacing (the so called six-foot) and structure gauge can be closer to prototype in purely British outline layouts and more realistic.-Distanziamento del doppio binario (il cosidetto interbinario) e sagoma limite possono essere più vicino al prototipo in plastici puramente Britannici e più realistico.

-This coherent gauge relationship is possible with modern motors and fine wheel's standards.-Questa relazione coerente dello scartamento è possibile con motori moderni e norme di ruote fini.

-Consistent scale for cross Ferry/Chunnel rolling stock on both sides of the Channel.-Scala coerente per materiale che attraversa la Manica mediante traghetto/galleria su entrambi lati della Manica.

-British outline more appealing to overseas modellers accustomed to 1:87 for 16.5mm gauge as well as for new British modellers.-Modelli Britannici più attraenti a modellisti esteri abituati a 1:87 per scartamento 16.5mm ed anche per nuovi modellisti Britannici.

-Right proportions for rolling stock of all nationalities on on layouts which are not completly correct prototypically, but correct in relative proportions.-Giuste proporzioni per materiale rotabile di tutte le nazionalità su plastici che non sono prototipicamente corretti, ma corretti nelle relative proporzioni.

-These proportions are both on the layout and in display cabinets.-Queste proporzioni sono sia sul plastico che nelle vetrine da esposizione.

-No more British trains being bigger than overseas ones when it is the opposite in reality nor different buffers spacings when it is the same in reality.-Niente più treni Britannici più grandi di quelli esteri quando è l'opposto in realtà né diversa distanza dei respingenti quando è la stessa in realtà.

  Admittedly it does happen overseas too that exact 1:87 ratio is not completly adhered to, but at least it is aimed for.  Bisogna ammettere che succede anche oltremare che il rapporto esatto 1:87  non è completamente rispettato, ma almeno è un obbiettivo da raggiungere.O.C. 17-2-18

[LCDR]

 The issue of 'legacy' in the UK is compelling. There are very few modellers in the UK who operate HO compared to those who use OO. There are also very few HO modellers in Europe and the rest of the world who model UK railways. 

 

Commercially therefore it would be a huge gamble by the UK manufacturers to stop making OO and start making HO, similarly few rest of the world manufacturers are likely to make UK outline models, a few have tried (Fleishmann, Lima, Jouef, Rivarossi) in the past and very quickly stopped because they did not sell.

 

I agree that 1:87 scale to 16.5mm gauge ratio is far more correct, but we are where we are!

 

It is also noticable that Bachmann USA chose to make their Thomas the Tank Engine range in 4mm scale.

 

A similar but less noticble scale gauge discrepancy occurs with gauge O, in the US gauge O uses 1:45 scale and not 1:43.5, used in the UK. A small difference perhaps but when Lima used this some years ago the carriages looked oddly small.

 

N gauge too had considerable discrepancies beween UK and rest of the world prorotypes.

 

Over the years UK manufacturers have tried to move away from OO, with considerable lack of progress. Meccano Hornby tried 'S' gauge but got no further than some mock ups for testing, Trix used a hybrid OO/HO scale but eventually started to produce OO just before they went out of business, Triang tried TT but it never really caught on. The only major departure from OO was N and this was already well established overseas and had the distinct advantage that it required less space. Z and T gauges however have still to show any real progress (they are probably TOO small) .

 

At the present time there are Chinese, Danish, British and Irish manufacturers committed to OO, and they are all very successful, to change scales now would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater!