R1167 - F.Scotsman

[Fredfootrot]

Hi all. 

Where to start. I purchased the Hornby R1167,(DCC ready), Flying Scotsman set yesterday at a good price as the well known toy store is closing down. Today I thought, right, lets get aTTS decoder from my local model rail shop ,ie an A1/A3 class Hornby one. After working out how to position said decoder within the loco and extending the wires so that the speaker would fit into the tender, I was well chuffed,(no pun intended!). Until I went to set it up on my prog track. Nothing. Nil. Diddly squat. So my next move was to go back to my local model rail shop with the loco and recently purchased chip to diagnose problem. Bingo! The chip didn`t work on their dcc test loco either!! We tried a new chip, which worked, and plugged that into my new loco and that worked! Luvvly jubbly! So, I raced home at full steam, re-wired the new TTS chip back into the dear old(new) Scotsman, placed it onto my prog track and............nothing. Nil. Diddly squat.Ah,I hear you say, it must be your Prodigy express or your prog track playing up. Alas, not the problem as I checked that out by re-programming one of my other DCC loco`s. I have not got a lot of hair, I have a bit less today. Anyone any suggestions?

[Rog RJ]

As silly as it sounds, try turning the loco round on the programming track and see if it makes any difference.  A few people say that turning the loco round can help.  But the real problem could well be that you have a faulty chip.  There have been a number of faulty TTS decoders that have had to be returned to Hornby for the chips to be reprogrammed.  Contact Hornby for help with your problem.

 See this https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/hornby-tts-decoders-reported-problems/?p=1

[Fredfootrot]

Hi Rog. Thanks for comments. Yes , tried turning loco around, no joy I`m afraid. As I posted previous, I had chip replaced but same thing happened again within an hour of getting second chip and the second chip was ok in the shop `coz we tried it.. Really puzzling as I do not understand how I cannot programme the damn thing on my prog track.It will be interesting to see what happens when I take this second chip back to Dan the Man,(a good lad), at Derails,(http://www.derails.co.uk/).

I wonder if it could be a soldering problem, ie too much heat going down a wire to the chip when I do the extension wiring. Dunno. Just a thought.

[mjb1961]

Hi Fred ,,,,,,I had this problem with one or two of my TTS locos ,all steam and including the flying Scotsman ,,,,try a 4 digit address ,,this worked for me ,I was using a NCE powercab at the time ,,,,hope this works for you ,,,,,mjb

[Fredfootrot]

Ok. I`ll try it . Tx.

[Fredfootrot]

Tried 4 digit address. No go. Tried programming on main. No go. Well dogged off now. £97 quid +£33  down the drain atm. Don`t want to use this as a dc set. I see a car boot coming on.

[Fredfootrot]

Btw, how do I delete duplicates on this forum.

[Howbi]

Fred........you can't delete your duplicate threads, only a moderator can do that..........you said that the loco and 2nd decoder worked ok in the model shop so why not get them to prog the loco to required address and take it home and run it?.........HB

[Chrissaf]

FFT,

Wait long enough and a Moderator will come along, spot and remove malformed and duplicate posts. Like I just did above

[Fredfootrot]

Well, I`m going back Thursday to re-test. We`ll see what happens. Is there any way that the chip can be `blown` as soon as I go to programme it ? Seems odd , I know, but can`t think of anything else.Unless there`s some kind of power problem. 

[Chrissaf]

It hasn't been unknown for the 'DCC Ready' socket to be miss-wired at the factory, such that the blanking plug works fine on DC, but a decoder gets damaged when plugged in. I can't find it now, but there was such a post highlighting this factory error in the last month. It might be worth using an ohmmeter (multi-meter set to resistance) to prove the wiring from the wheels and motor to the socket to ensure everything arrives on the correct socket pin.

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http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html#Basic

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Scroll down the page that opens for the 8 pin socket wiring.

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If the socket is miss-wired, it would also explain why your programmer can't see the DCC chip.

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Basically the miss-wiring reversed one of the motor and pickup pairs of wires. This doesn't affect the DC running using a blanking plug, but when you plug a decoder in. It connects the DCC track voltage to the motor pin on the decoder, and the DCC track input to the decoder gets connected to the motor. The DCC voltage on the decoder motor pin damages the decoder, whilst the decoder DCC track input being connected to the motor means that the controller can't see the decoder for programming. Worth checking, just in case.

[Fredfootrot]

Hmm..... problem is that the loco ran ok with the replacement TTS chip in it at the shop test track.We tried it before I walked out with the replacement chip. But I appreciate what you say about the mis wiring. Until I go back tomorrow to re-prove the replacement I can do nowt. . What I did not do and ,If I have to get a new chip, is to see if the loco will programme up before I do any wiring modification. But to be honest I cannot see how extending the speaker feed by a couple of inches could cause a problem. 

[trainlover23]

 I think rewiring/extending the wires has a lot to do with it 

[mjb1961]

Hi Fred,,,,,,so far we've tried to solve the problem of programming,,,but you say it works at the shop ,,,,do you mean that it runs and sounds etc at the shop ?  Also when they try it at the shop is the decoder address set at '3' ,,factory default ,,,? ,,if yes ,,does it run and sound etc on your layout when set at '3' ,,,,,mjb

[trainlover23]

 Just a thought you are using the TTS chip as well as the speaker are`nt you

[Chrissaf]

When extending the wires, they first have to be removed at the very least at one end. Unless you cut the wires in the middle and insert extra wires in the run of the existing wires and have two sets of heat shrinked joints.

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Are you removing the wires completely from both the speaker AND the decoder OR just from the speaker (as recommended in the Hornby instructions) then adding extra wire to the remaining tails and then re-attaching to the speaker. If you are soldering directly onto the decoder, then it is very easy (due to the tiny size) to end up with either solder bridges (shorts) across adjacent solder pads or damage due to heat transfer into delicate decoder components.

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Look at your own evidence. Unmodified TTS decoder works fine. After modification you have issues. What you are doing therefore logically must have a bearing on the issue.

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[trainlover23]

 I don`t think you can do what you want to do. By cutting the wires you  arfe doing something that the chip is not designed for. I sincerly hope the shop is not replacing your chips free of charge

[Chrissaf]

Extract from Hornby's TTS installation guide.

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[96RAF]

I consider myself extremely competent at soldering micro-components and errant wires back onto decoders but I find it so much simpler to desolder at the speaker and extend the existing wires. Just be aware the speaker magnet will try to grab your soldering iron so tape the magnet down to the bench and be ready for the fatal attraction else you may burn a hole in the speaker diagram.

Rob

[Fredfootrot]

Thanks for all the replies. Latest update. 

Went back to shop this morning with the second chip and all we got when we set up on test was a red hot chip and that lovely smell of burning electronics! So that was the end of that. We then placed standard hornby R8249 into socket and all was ok. (I paid for that `coz I needed one of those anyway). So I was handed a R8108 TTS chip to try at home. Low and behold it worked. 

Now this is where I stand guilty :- I have been cutting wires and extending them. 

So on this occasion I thought that I would cut and  "piece out" ,(as we used to say in my job), the speaker wiring but without soldering, just twisting the wires together to see what would happen. All worked! 

For a short while. All I get now is a loud, continuous buzzing from the speaker and no response from the loco. Can`t even programme it again. 

May have to settle for running this as DCC without sound.

[mjb1961]

I am quite baffled by what you say ,,,I can't understand how cutting through two wires and peicing them back together can cause all this trouble ,,,,is the tts decoder now running the loco without any issue apart from not playing sounds,,or rather the only sounds you get are crackles etc,,,if this is the case try cutting off the speaker and the wires you twisted on and replace the speaker with a sugar cube speaker ,,that is what most people do and it will fit in the loco body ,,,there should be no reason why it does not work ,,,,if that fails ,,get a big hammer and smash it into little peices ,,,please let us no of your next move ,,,,mjb

[Rog RJ]

The suggestion by mjb to replace the speaker is a good idea.

There have been a number of cases where the standard speaker supplied with the TTS decoders has failed, causing poor sound, lack of sound, hissing and crackling.

[Fredfootrot]

As I said in last post, the train programmed up, briefly. All worked ok for about 10 mins.Then I had a high pitch whistling followed by continuous buzzing. No response from loco  - could not re-program it either.Taking out the extension wiring and re-joining the originals made no difference. Same symptoms were apparent when re-tested at shop. So that was TTS no2 down the swanny. Loco is now running on basic DCC chip.While at the shop I decided to treat myself to a Bachmann A1 with sound chip. Luvly jubbly. I suppose you get what you pay for.

Thank you for all your suggestions and comments.They have been appreciated.