New TTS Black 5. decoder

[WilliamDavid]

I have just fitted this decoder and have following issues.

1. CV7/CV8 show type S15 not Black 5. Ok no problem though, had worse.

2. CV table doesn't show CV178 to CV181 as per data sheet, although they do play.

3. CV182 not available to master change sound volume. I had to change CV160 to CV177           individually. I couldn't change CV178 to CV181, of course.

Is there some trick to overcome this?

Has anyone else got, or getting one of these.

Please let me know how yours behave.

Plus note. Th sounds are very good.

 

[mjb1961]

Hi ,,cant really answer your question ,but what is the running quality like ,,has the jerky slow running been solved or do you still have to alter cv,s to change algorithm,,,,thanks ,,mjb

[96RAF]

You say you have got the user manual for the Black 5  to refer to...good.

CV159 should read value 171 for a Black 5 as shown in the manual or value 179 for the S15.

Read also CV158 value.

Try adjusting CV184 for master volume or if no joy try CV189 and report back on these comments.

 

As this post is in DCC not Railmaster, which controller are you using and what is the revision state. If as you say the CV table is partially greyed out this suggests you are reading via RM. if your controller allows can you read these grey CVs direct from the controller (e.g. Elite not eLink).

 

If using RM can you force the decoder in CV7 to be a Black 5 - I don’t have RM handy to look at so it may not be listed in the drop down, hence how do you know CV7/8 tells of an S15 - maybe S15 is listed.

 

The more we know the better we can help.

thanks Rob

[WilliamDavid]

Initial response.

Although I run my trains via Railmaster on an an Elite, I programme using Railmaster on an Elink.

CV7 doesn't show the Black five.

The loco  a Bachmann std 5MT, didn't run well, and was far too slow, even using the Elite direct.

I set CV150 to 1, and it changed dramatically, much smoother and speed more to scale.

I put CV back to 0 and everything stayed just fine(???)

I'll try the other things suggested later.

Thanks for your inputs.

 

In addition CV159 reads 171

Cvs 178 to 182 greyed out and N/A

[WilliamDavid]

I have just reverted it back to CV150=1. Much smoother.

I was using the standard Hornby decoder for a few years. Never had running problem.

I thought this and the TTS decoder had the same parameters.

Seems to be running ok now, although I don't think I can alter CVs178 to 182. 

[96RAF]

These questions remain...

Can you read those errant CVs direct using the Elite. This will obviously mean connecting to the prog track and not using RM.

Can you change master volume on CV189. You can try this on the main track using Elite in Operate programming mode. A simple test is to set value 000 POM and sound will immediately silence.

How did RM report the decoder was an S15, when CV7 value is that for a Black 5.

Rob

 

[WilliamDavid]

RAF96

Unfrtunately my Elite does not work on the programming function. That's why I use the elink with a seperate Win10 tablet.

The incorrect CV7 reading is not unusual. I've had this on a number of other TTS decoders, but have never had this problem. S15 seems a common default as does the standard non TTS decoder.

I tried it with CV7 set to TTS (Steam). Made no difference.

The decoder is probably faulty, and maybe future users will verify this.

Hornby have a bit of work to do to get things up to scratch.

[96RAF]

The problem is not the TTS decoder but RM not being sophisticated enough to be able to read through a sequence of CVs to determine which decoder it is looking at.

CV7 is the basic decoder ID but by legacy this often refs just back to the R8249. It is necessary for RM to use the logic to say this could be decoder type a, b or c, then to read other CVs 156, 157, 158 and/or 159 to narrow down exactly which decoder it is.

 

Hence why I queried how you know its an S15 when code 171 is for a Black 5 and the S15 ID is 179.

 

You can still try adjusting the master volume on those alternative CVs I gave you using eLink in the normal way. A greyed out CV can still be selected and changed.

 

In what way do you think the decoder is faulty and what particular things do you think Hornby need to bring up to scratch. I am sre if you can nail it down to specifics they will address them for you.

 

Rob

[WilliamDavid]

I changed the greyed out Cvs but cannot read them back to see if the change was effective.

CV7 just showed S15. Black five is not available.

Whatever I set CV7 to it still greys out those Cvs.

My gripe is, a number of these decoders I have purchased have had some issue to overcome. Are they not checked before being released for sale.

 Also, I would have thought the Black5 would have been on the RM dropdown box by now. The TTS loco has been out for a few years.

 

[96RAF]

As TTS and other decoders are manufactured by the thousands, I don’t suppose each one is checked other than by an automated basic functionality process and possibly only on a percentage basis to satisfy Quality requirements.

 

Each decoder is properly checked during development looking for bugs but once released to production its a basic factory make and box process as above.

 

Bugs are known to creep in where something that was working before and had been previously checked gets broken by more recent code and it isn’t noticed until a user points it out. Once pointed out a fix is usually quickly sorted, but this cannot magically fix old ‘broken‘ stock sitting on a shelf in a shop until it is brought into use and returned to the manufacturer to fix.

 

There is also the chance of a genuine duff decoder where a component fails during initial use and the Hornby no quibble warranty covers that as well as ‘death by user installion’.

 

You have seen this reported on a grander scale in various Microsoft updates where something that worked fine last time is updated to broken status.

 

The forums can give you advice on many things but you should list your specific ‘bad product’ concerns item by item and let HCC deal with them.

 

Rob

[WilliamDavid]

Quality, these days, is achieved by Quality Assurance, not Inspection. 

The design and manufacturing should be that these errors don't occur.

[96RAF]

Quality, these days, is achieved by Quality Assurance, not Inspection. 

The design and manufacturing should be that these errors don't occur.

If you say so...

Rob

[Driver63a]

Recently purchased 2 R8114 decoders for fitting to Hornby Black 5s and possibly an 8f. I am using Railmaster with E-link.

When I read the CVs and compare with supplied Decoder Manual I get the following results:-

CV7: Manual says 7 is default value, Decoder reads as 14 and text is "Class 15".

CV 158: Manual says 3 is default, Decoder reads as 10.

CV159: Both agree at 171.

CVs from 178 onwards are greyed out but you can enter a value into CV182 the Quick Set Volume Level and it does change all the volume levels.

There does not appear to be an update to Railmaster which supports the R8114 Decoder as yet.

Both decoders read the same values and appear to be working correctly. I am getting Steam sounds and not the sound of a Class 15 Diesel Loco !!

Anyone else getting the same results.

[Chrissaf]

CV7..........Decoder reads as 14 and text is "Class 15" .............................................. ..............I am getting Steam sounds and not the sound of a Class 15 Diesel Loco !!

.

The R8114 is a Black 5 Steam Loco decoder. Therefore it does not have any Diesel sounds loaded into it. Even if, when read with RailMaster, CV7 reports as a 'Class 15' (that will be a reading error).

.

It seems to me, based upon the number of TTS CV7 reading issue reports on this forum that I have read. That CV7 reading correctly and reliably is suspect and rather iffy.

[96RAF]

The TTS embedded sound chip ID for a Black 5 is 19 and sound ID [CV159) is 171.

Sound chip ID 14 is for a Merchant Navy and CV159 for this one is 169.

To my knowledge Hornby does not do a diesel Class 15 TTS but the steam S15 numbers as above are 21 and 179 respectively.

i find RM readback is often awry and I have to recheck via a direct read using the Elite. I advise flagging the read errors back to HRMS using the RM built in reporting method.

Rob

[Driver63a]

The TTS embedded sound chip ID for a Black 5 is 19 and sound ID [CV159) is 171.

Sound chip ID 14 is for a Merchant Navy and CV159 for this one is 169.

To my knowledge Hornby does not do a diesel Class 15 TTS but the steam S15 numbers as above are 21 and 179 respectively.

i find RM readback is often awry and I have to recheck via a direct read using the Elite. I advise flagging the read errors back to HRMS using the RM built in reporting method.

Rob

Does not appear to be a decoder reading error but more likely an error within the Railmaster system data. I have setup a demo Railmaster system on a different laptop with no connection to a controller and only the default Hall loco. If I look at the Loco Information screen and double click on CV7 I get the pull down list of decoders. I then have the option to select "TTS Class 15" and this will give me a CV7 ID of 14. No reading involved.

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As mentioned in my previous post the Decoder Manual for the Black 5 gives a default value of 7 for CV7. You are quoting a value of 19 for a Black 5 and the value of 14 should be a Merchant Navy. The other manuals that I have for A1/A3, A4 and Tornado all have a mask of "xxx" as the CV7 value. It would be helpful if Hornby could state the correct value in the documentation.

I will contact HRMS in due course but as my layout is in the loft it is not the best place to be in mid-winter.

 

[96RAF]

As you used the blue/white arrow button your response has been lost in the coloured box Making it difficult to see what is my post and what is your reply.

 

Why are you selecting a Class 15 as all my searches show that is a diesel not a Black 5.

 

A reading of  XXX means the read has failed. You should be aware that when selecting a decoder type using the CV7 force list you are accepting the database value for that selection and not reading the true value from the decoder.

 

There are two values involved in identifying a TTS decoder. CV7 is the decoder firmware ID and is generally used as the first step in identifying a loco type.

 

There is then the Sound file ID which tells of which sound file version is installed. This can change as the decoder is developed e.g. when ECS was introduced later versions of the decoder had a different ID.

 

Other CVs in the 15x range give additional information about the decoder such as motor type.

 

Then in addition there is the embedded sound chip ID which tells of the actual amplifier device installed and which is generally of bo interest to anyone outside the workshop.

 

I agree having the decoder and sound file listings could be useful, but Hornby would argue this is already provided for each loco via the user manual, and the listing values can change as the decoder is developed and in case of when bugs have been fixed, so it would all boil down to what your particular decoder reads back.

Rob

[mikejj101]

Just to add to this post - I have an older Black 5 R2360 and decided to put a sound chip in it.

Purchased the Hornby R8114 Black 5 chip kit and proceeded to modify the engine and tender to have the chip in the boiler and the speaker in the tender with the addition of some fine wires to link them together.

I use RM and elink and tried to get the system to find R8114 but it failed so I assumed it's obviously a newer addition to the product range and may be included in the next update from RM.

Searching through the library of engines in RM I find there are various models listed that incorporate sound so I tried a few.

R2804X 4-6-0 Class 5 BR black Sound

R2895X 4-6-0 Class 5 BR black Sound

R2995X 4-6-0 Class 5 BR black Sound

R3385T BR 4-6-0 Class 5MT "Black 5"

They all produced different results regarding the actual sound produced but I found the last one - R3385T to be the best selection and gave me all the sounds that were available.

The only thing I found reading Rob's comments was that the function CV189 is greyed out so you cannot set the master volume.

[Chrissaf]

Be aware, that if you open the loco in the RailMaster 'Locomotive Settings' screen. You have complete editing capability to change the 'text' shown against the F0 to F28 functions. Just note that there is a character limit. Also note that if you want the function to 'lock on' - say wheel clack for example - you must add the text on/off to the end of the function button label and this will eat into your character limit.

Thus trying to find a close match in the database, although commendable that you did it, was actually an unnecessary use of your time. You could have just copied [typed] the listing of the sounds made for each function from the TTS decoder instruction sheet directly into the RailMaster function button labels and overwrite whatever is currently listed.

[96RAF]

Master volume should be CV182 but there was a batch of Black 5s where this was ofset hence the alternative location. Try CV 182 on the main if your controller supports PoM - RM doesn’t.

The loco R listings also have a character limit which is why the old ESU sound decoder equipped Black 5s show as .......X (short for XS) and the TTS equipped one shows as .......T (short for TTS).

Hence the latter is the correct one to load the TTS sound function listings.

You have to learn to beat the RM system when looking for such locos.

[mikejj101]

Hi again,

Thanks for the comments.

Chris - I did, after your comments, have a go doing as you said regarding inputting the settings listed on the sheet supplied with the decoder R8114 but couldn't manage to get the DCC functions list to appear as it should be on screen with the various functions against the 'F' keys.

I found it far easier to reload the engine using the R3385T and all was working again.

RAF96 - CV182 does indeed work as a master vol control.

I'm wondering why the sheet supplied with the decoder doesn't show the same values as when they are read back by RM. CV158 = 10 on my read back but states 3 on the sheet.