Old Analogue Locos to DCC

[Millsy1707819711]

Hello,

A few weeks back I bought a Hornby Starter Set (Somerset Belle) so I could have a digital set straight away. Not being a huge fan of steam I decided to trade in the DCC fitted loco which came with it for a new Class 66 And a DCC chip (Not 1:1 but I digress). The class 66 has be programmed fine and runs great, no problems.

Anyway, as of recent I have purchased a couple used locos, a class 58 (R2346) and a class 37 (R2027). I have received the class 58, tried it on my track and although I can hear it is powered it will not run. The previous owner assured me it runs however he did mention he has a Analouge layout. 

To my knowledge analogue trains should still run on the 03 Command on the digital controller (Although yeah I am aware It isn’t good for the motors) I wanted to test it ran.

My questions are as follows:

- Why is the class 58 not running, Any common reasons, is it to do with the motor or what, any solutions?

- Will the class 37 have the same issue as the class 58?

- Can you convert the two models stated above into DCC although they are not DCC Ready? (I have read on hattons it is possible but am still skeptical)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Kind Regards.

 

[Chrissaf]

To my knowledge analogue trains should still run on the 03 Command on the digital controller.

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This is incorrect.

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There is a special Analogue mode that the Select has to be put into to run an Analogue loco. This is sometimes referred to as Address Zero, but the reference to any address is a bit misleading. Analogue support is not on Address 03

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Analogue Support mode is covered on Page 16 of the Select Manual version 1.5

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I have received the class 58, tried it on my track and although I can hear it is powered it will not run. The previous owner assured me it runs however he did mention he has a Analogue layout.

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Why is the class 58 not running?

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Because you have not put the Select in the proper Analogue support mode. Placing the Analogue loco on the track (when the Select display is showing 03) means that it is receiving a full DCC alternating track voltage where there is no positive or negative voltage bias. Thus it cannot move. All that is happening is that the motor is being vibrated where it stands by the track voltage. This is the buzz you can hear. If you leave the loco on the track in this state it will burn out the motor.

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Hornby even put a caveat in the Select manual to say that Analogue support is not recommended....see extract below in yellow highlight.

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/media/tinymce_upload/410fafafe3ec1eeb0725977562757701.jpg

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Will the class 37 have the same issue as the class 58?

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More than likely. The issue is the same with any Analogue locomotive you place on a DCC powered track.

 

Although yeah I am aware It isn’t good for the motors.

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It is more than 'not good' it is highly detrimental to an Analogue motor, you are really risking permanent motor damage.

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Please read this article:

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc/dc-locomotive-damage-risk

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Can you convert the two models stated above into DCC although they are not DCC Ready?

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Virtually any loco, DCC Ready or not, can be converted to DCC by fitting a decoder. Some can be more problematic than others, some are very simple to convert. There are a few types that are very difficult to convert and not worth trying, but these are few and far between.

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The R2346 falls into the very easy to convert category (can type motor).

The R2027 falls into the easy to medium difficulty to convert (ringfield type motor).

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This website gives a few examples of conversion techniques:

http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/decoderinstallation4mm.htm

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[Fishmanoz]

Conversion gets more difficult if there is a connection between the track and a motor connection that is not removed when you disconnect the pickup wires from the motor.  If this connection isn’t removed, you will instantly kill the decoder.  Certain types of Ringfield motor have such a connection at the LH brush connection.

 

The service sheet for your Class 37 is No 210.  If you look at that and compare with Chris’s Bromsgrove link, the wiring is different.  Best way to tell for sure is google Brian Lambert, go to his DCC pages, converting to DCC and check out the 3 types of Ringfield and how to convert, including fixing that LH motor brush problem (yes, given the wiring shown in SS210, that connection will be there).

[Millsy1707819711]

Do either of you know how much it roughly costs to get them converted not including the DCC Chip itself?

 

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Would you say it is worth actually getting them converted or not?

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What would be the most cost efficient option? 

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Kind Regards

[jane1707819582]

Do either of you know how much it roughly costs to get them converted not including the DCC Chip itself?

 

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Would you say it is worth actually getting them converted or not?

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What would be the most cost efficient option? 

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Kind Regards

expect to pay £15-£20 for a decoder fitting.

if you are going dcc ,then yes convert them.

learning to fit decoders is the most cost effcient option . understanding how to isolate the motor from the chassis is key .the rest is just soldering .

the class 58 is the simplest to start with .

pop the top off the other , take a picture of the motor ,post it on here ,help will come .

[Millsy1707819711]

Hi,

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So I was quoted £25 per engine plus £18 for the decoder, I was also told that the ringfeild motors have a large chance of the conversion not going right and the loco not accepting it.

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Not sure what to do, the gent at the shop has said he can evaluate free of charge so I’m thinking of taking both 37 (ringfield) and 58 (CAN) into him And get them looked at, Will most likely convert the 58 and sell the 37, anyone goy any more thoughts?

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Kind regards

[96RAF]

His statement about the ringfield conversion not going right screams to me that he doesnt know what he is doing - avoid - avoid.

Ringfield conversion are easy if you follow the golden rule, when the motor is disconnected there must be NO continuity between motor and pickups. If so you find that path and isolate it. All explained on both the forums and Brian Lambert siteas previuosly advised.

[Millsy1707819711]

His statement about the ringfield conversion not going right screams to me that he doesnt know what he is doing - avoid - avoid.

Ringfield conversion are easy if you follow the golden rule, when the motor is disconnected there must be NO continuity between motor and pickups. If so you find that path and isolate it. Allexplained on both the forums and Brian Lambert siteas previuosly advised.

Yeah I get where you’re coming from, think I’m gonna get him to look at both but only do the class 58, miGuy sell the class 37 and get a newer model from bachmann maybe thats DCC ready. Hard to build a EWS set with DCC ready locos beings as it doesn’t exist anymore.

[Millsy1707819711]

might* sell the class 37*

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Is there a price check form? It would be good to have both of the locos Price checked

[Chrissaf]

Is there a price check form?

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No

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You could either search eBay for your model and see what the average price is being asked for it. Alternatively, you might find it listed on this site (but this site tends to link back to eBay for prices anyway).

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http://www.hornbyguide.com/default.asp

[Millsy1707819711]

Is there a price check form?

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No

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You could either search eBay for your model and see what the average price is being asked for it. Alternatively, you might find it listed on this site (but this site tends to link back to eBay for prices anyway).

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http://www.hornbyguide.com/default.asp

Thanks

[ColinB]

I found on some of my ringfield motors one of the motor connections was connected to the track via a screw, there is a post on this site about it. In my case I took the screw out tapped it with a m2.0 tap and fitted a nylon bolt. I did it with both brush holders so there was no issue mixing them up. Unfortunately, nylon screws don't seem to come smaller than 2.0 mm thread. I am slowly converting all my old locos and I must admit the only issue I have is finding room for the decoder. I have done 7 Bachmann A4 locos and two Bachmann  0-6-0 locos. What I do is use a 6 pin connector as it is the smallest, and 6 pin decoders, again as they are the smallest. I would have thought a Hornby Diesel should be relatively easy, lots of room to fit the decoder and the supply comes off separate bogies. I also found the LaisDCC modules off EBay are the best for old models at least to test them out, as you don't lose much if you blow them up.

[Fishmanoz]

You are echoing Colin but a mod will be along to remove the duplicate.  And what you are saying is exactly per the Brian Lambert reference I gave on page 1 when you have the Ringfield type that has that connection.

[Lord Boot Sale]

Nylon bolts for converting early Hornby Ringfield motors to DCC are available from Peter's Spares. 

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The various versions of the Hornby Ringfield Motor.

 

The original version (Class 4 Type1) has wires soldered to the brush holders, so is relatively straightforward to rewire for DCC.

 

The Class 5 Type 2 motors have variations. these are the ones with the brush retaining arms attached to the faceplate so that they have to be bent up a bit to change the brushes. The first type has a metal 'pin' on the motor block that touches the back of the left hand brush connection. Not the best contact, but relatively easy to bend the contact out slightly. The pin can also be removed from the motor block.

Hornby later introduced a bridge wire to connect the left hand brush connection to the motor block. Some motors still have the pin as well. Again, removal of the bridge wire, and ensuring no contact between the brush connection and the pin is the way to go.

 

The motors with the screws are the Class 6 motors. The left hand screw is usually longer than the right hand screw, and cuts into the metal of the motor block.

The right hand screw cuts into the plastic of the faceplate, and there is a hole in the motor block behind it to help avoid any contact.

 

It is therefore essential to isolate the brush retainer from the motor block. nylon machine screws are good.

 

In the absence of these, it is possible to use plastic tube and plastic washers to insulate the screw from the brush retainer, whilst still mechanically holding the brush retainer in place...

 

But easier and probably safer with nylon machine screws...just don't overtighten them and snap the head off! 😉

 

A good idea to tap the metal to the same thread as the screw....if possible.

Forcing the screw into the existing hole may work, but don't forget that you would need to unscrew the screw to change the brushes!

 

[The son of Triangman]

Conversion of the ringfield motors is easy. If your model shop guy thinks they are a problem then I wouldn't be taking models into the shop for conversion.

[Phil_Spiegel.]

Saving the quoted cost of getting   'a dealer' to   convert  a loco, i would recommend spending some of that money  on a multimeter which has many uses and will quickly 'pay for itself'  by ensuring that YOU learn to fit decoders simply and efficiently yourself ..... With a meter it is quite easy to verify that track is fully isolated from the motor, and the motor connections are equally isolated from everythibg else before adding a decoder .....

You have the guidance now see how easy it is to put into practice 8-)

Don't forget to ALSO check the motor runs well in analogue FIRST !!    And ideally measure the current it takes BEFORE choosing tbe rating of decoder needed. ....

 

(Personally .... Having started from converting locos for zero-1 when it launched,  i often think that the newer models are a better starting point  ( buying old models a false economy) as newer have better mechanics and motors, as well as wheels ( in most cases ).... With better detailing .... BUT more prone to bits falling off due to fragility or factory push-fitting items only which then fall out.   ( Note Rapido recommend PVA adhesive for fitting fine details ... They stay in, but can be removed with some PVA types (washable or not washable??? Unlike supeglue))

 

[The son of Triangman]

Nylon bolts for motors that need them for DCC conversion are more cheaply available from big electronics suppliers such as cpc/farnell, rapid, digikey, rs etc.

[ColinB]

.Reading all these posts I started looking at converting my old Hornby Ringfield based models. I tried out my green BR Mallard, bought sometime in the eighties, and was amazed how much current it used. According to my multimeter it was drawing up to 0.8 of an amp, now I don't know if this is normal, but given my experience with Mainline models that draw about 0.4 amp, I would suggest that selection of the decoder is critical. On the Mainline model conversion I found some of the decoders could not source the current and subsequently burnt out. I finally got my Mainline models to work with the Bachmann right agle 6 pin device. They definitely did not like the DCC Concepts 6 pin offering.

[The son of Triangman]

 

 

This will be DCC in time when I get time to produce some more MK2 DCC ready PCB's. They are also so easy to hardwire decoders in if you decide hardwire a decoder in.

/media/tinymce_upload/a095656c8634335fbd6c5cd3017cb838.jpg

 

 

[Phil_Spiegel.]

Colin wrote:   [at 12:12:13 Fri, 20 Sep 2019]

"Reading all these posts I started looking at converting my old Hornby Ringfield based models. I tried out my green BR Mallard, bought sometime in the eighties, and was amazed how much current it used. According to my multimeter it was drawing up to 0.8 of an amp, now I don't know if this is normal, but given my experience with Mainline models that draw about 0.4 amp, I would suggest that selection of the decoder is critical. ...."

Phil: Having just been converting some old Marklin AC 3-rail locos dating from 'Made in Western Germany' period to 2-Rail DC/dcc operation,  an observation of test running some of these locos showed that they required 0-6-0.8A initially .... (excluding totally seized models where the lubrication had dried like a glue ... 1 example of that)  but this was soon reduced to 0.3A or less after some lubrication and running in. These are now all fitted with NEW permanent magnet assemblies from ESU...(replacing coil magnets for ac use)

Similarly - but easier in theory - I have several Wrenn /H-D West Country Class (Ringfield) and a 4MT - which were used by me on Zero-1 - and then converted via ZTC to isolated brushes for DCC using one of their 'high current' decoder designs;....

Neodymium magnets are available as replacements for the original magnets leading to more efficient running ... in theory....

Some care with the motor axle / bearing setting is required after changing the magnet, as the motor has to be dismantled to make the changeover ... and careful adjustment ( preferably using a power supply with both volt and current simultaneous readouts ) is needed to avoid too stiff a reassembly.  I also found the supplied magnets were slightly undersized, and required a paper-thickness spacer to retain them correctly. (they were bought in December 2007 - current offerings may be better).

Initial observations showed that the current range was then well within the spec of a Lenz Std Decoder. Off-load a motor tested just now started around 5V and was taking less than 0.2A ... The motor winding measures 28 ohms - so from V=IR    14V = 0.5A x 28 ohms suggests its JUST ON THE LIMIT for a TTS decoder:   but  in the same way a 10 ohm resistor can be added in series to a 'highcurrent' Heljan Diesel Loco to limit the current range, from P=IV, P= I2R  a 2.5Watt 10ohm resistor would be sufficient (and take 25% of the power).

The use of the modern NEO magnet making the motor (using the same windings) more powerful and efficient than previously - therefore running at lower currents and cooler than before.

Note: Some 'early dcc decoders' - especially perhaps those also designed to be compatible with Zero-1 - may have /have had slightly different timing specs to the current NMRA standard, resulting in 'compatibility' issues with certain (NMRA conforming) systems. These early decoders also tended to follow the early method of low frequency drive to the motor - inherited from 'mains-frequency-based-systems' like Zero-1 .... with 50-100Hz pulse rates resulting in jerky coggy motion... whereas 'modern' decoders tend to default to ultrasonic drive frequencies more compatible with sound decoders and smaller components.

I may also now re-visit my Kadee conversion of these locos - and see if I can use the 'Bachmann'/Tri-ang UK Mk3' couplong adapter mentioned in the Couplers thread ... a NEM pocket would give me a choice of coupling, with a good firm fitting...

[Chrissaf]

Phil, please have a read of my reply to your other recent post in this thread:

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tts-decoders-programming-problem-solved/?p=1

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[Phil_Spiegel.]

Phil: I tend to both read and write these posts on an Android ( wide-screen) tablet.

With the on-screen keyboard occupying half of the screen, the browser  and 2 rows of Hornby banner occupying the top quarter that leaves a small gap for writing text  of only 3 or 4 lines ... Fully zoomable by touching the screen.    I DO put returns after my sentences in many cases to provide separation, whilst still trying to maintain overall construction of paragraphs grouping content. ....As you say....the forum software appears to require a double return for a gapped paragraph break. 

If I were to 'double space' paragraphs, as i wrote them, then I would barely see more than a line of text at a time !

In last night's posts I did re-order the final version ... Again ensuring paragraph breaks appeared afterwards.

If reading replies on a large PC screen ??? .can I recommend Control+ for larger text  with larger spacing 8-)

(Akin to my old math's teacher's 'cover-up' rule whereby the other digits in a long division are out of sight)

I accept that many may skip over the more 'technical content' of some of my posts.   ....the alternative approach of an illustration (couplings) took 24hours to pass moderation. 

However, I believe that reasons behind 'events'  are essential if understanding is to be gained....   Otherwise there is a continued risk of propagating errors whereby, for example: posters claim that DCC is not an ac signal and other fallacies !  (  when I drew attention to the need to remove the suppression capacitor in commercially supplied ( eg Hornby, Roco, but unlikely home-made) track power clips   ...... A point I was glad to see you reinforcing in your recent analogueDC to DCC  reply.

I used to say that ( a problem and its solution) needed to occupy only 1 side of A4 ... As that was all you could guarantee would go through the photocopier ( and remain complete)

With no 'preview' option, the only reformatting option appears to be re-editing a post once sent.8-(

Or recommend they look at how the pages appear when using tablets ?????

I really should spend more time on my railways ...but useful ideas pop up in unlikely threads such as the useful Lima and Mk3 coupling adapters.

Raf's suggestion of wheel puller was an improvement over the one i already had ...and in conjunction with a vernier gauge, my ac to 2rail conversions appear to have been going well. Our skandi layout is now installed in the (underfloor heated) garage, and I hope to get back to working on my UK North Devon layout next...having fitted lots of TTS decoders earlier this year....