Made in Margate range

[The son of Triangman]

 

How about a small heritage range "Made in Margate".  Old vintage moulds for which there are no longer moulding plates could be 3D scanned to produce new moulding plates and parts sourced from cheapo China. They would be easy to make, assemble and to recruit staff to make them, only a small team would be needed, perhaps a tiny section of the disused factory at margate could be set aside for this?  Some work could even be outsourced to us modellers who would help for free.

 

[LCDR]

It is a nice idea but I wonder just how popular it would prove to be. Would there be enough interest to justfy the cost of manufacture? I have a fairly good collection of the originals, most of which still run, so I would be unlikely to buy, say, another short R50 Princess, because I already have a plain black Princess Elizabeth with plunger pick ups, a black Princess Elizabeth in BR lined black, two green ones, a black Princess Victoria, a red Princess Royal, plus another red one but this time Princess Elizabeth  in LMS red livery.

 

I did buy a re-issued Caledonian Single in a set with  coaches in Caledonian livery a few years ago, which was nice, and I WOULD buy a modernised Maunsell  L1 4-4-0 with finer wheels, although I would much prefer a new model with better detail and in proper lined black BR livery.

 

Which models were you thinking about?

 

Stephenson's Rocket might be a good one, sufficiently different and, not so far as I know, likely to appear as a ready to run model from any of the big manufacturers.

[Tony57]

What would be nice is a few of the wagons that had working parts, like opening doors on box wagons, either hinged or sliding,  drop door or sides on open wagons drop bottom doors on hopper wagons

My fav. is the side tipping wagon R345 need a couple of new moving sides.

In relation to locos why not make new or updated differant liveried bodies eg a R50 princess body and tender body in BR express blue just remove old black/green body from chassis and replace with new body. might have to do cylinder block as well. There are several others where a new loco and tender body or diesel/electric loco body could be useful, like the F5 class transcon, and B-60 double ended loco use same body with new loco liveries.

[The son of Triangman]

 

Still a livery to do on the old Princess LC&DR, in 1974 a Blue princess appeared, they are exceptionally rare.  A re-issue with improved livery might be popular?  Certainly some of the nice wagons with drop sides etc would be nice to see again in the range.  Perhaps Hornby could run a poll to see what would be the most popular models?

  

[96RAF]

I am surprised Hornby don’t have regular polls to gauge customer wants and wishes. This data could be used to reinforce pre-order sales  towards marketing a product or not with a little more confidence.

[Buz]

Hi all

No no definitely NO and I mean "NO".

This idea completely failed for me  when the words made in China came into it.

If the words  Hornby Made in England  RXXX cannot legitimately go on the base piece under the model then it is not made in Margate is it.

And in the case of locomotives I would expect the same original spare part service IE all of it as spares no exceptions for any piece and if they won't last as long as the original ones I already have, and are not repairable like the ones I have then there is zero point to making them because they are not anything like the originals.

So don't deserve the name or to be allowed to play on that good reputation.

What is being suggested is in my opinion just more cheap Chinese rubbish

Not as it should be quality made in England product.

Sorry guys not for me this one.

regards John

[96RAF]

To bring some context into what would or would not be economical to bring to market.

Hornby would need to pledge a Minimum Order of Quantity (MoQ) for any production item. My best guess would be around 2000 units, depending upon the product, its complexity, time to production, etc.

 

There is a vast difference between launching a new loco or rolling stock product and re-issuing say a sold-out TTS decoder. Whilst you could safely say the rolling stock would sell, who is to say there are another 2000 Class 37 or 47 or 66 users out there wanting to install a retro-TTS kit.

 

As an example look at the potentially very useful Select-a-Link cable, which would have brought RM into play for all the Select users out there. In my mind a dead cert that would fly off the shelves, but poor pre-order quantities meant it went in the bin - for now or forever - who knows.

 

Whilst we would all like our pet model or product to be available for us there is a limit on what Hornby can and will put within our reach - at least until the company gets firmly on its feet again and can afford to take the odd risk on something radical.

[Tony57]

I guess with all the tooling that was scrapped many of us who have a fondness for older Triang Hornby models being available to buy again are just dreams.

However if I had the money I would gladly pay Hornby to produce short run remakes of Loco and tenders bodies in different liveries and names to what they have produced before so a R50 black Princess Victoria could become a BR Blue Princess Louise or a LMS Maroon Princess Louise.

If it could be home produced it could have been a real money earner for Hornby, small hot plastic moulding machine all the old and new loco body toolings together with a couple of paint spray booths, bodies moulded in a grey plastic then painted, named and numbered to order. How many forum members have put requests for replacment bodies or body parts how many requests do Hornby get?

Before anyone says it can not be done look at Dapol moulded, painted and assembled in Wales. and Wessex Wagons blank Dapol wagons painted to your company club business charity design in small batches of less than 200.

So come on Simon and Hornby give the idea some serious thought please.

[The son of Triangman]

Models for which moulds no long exist could be remade.  3D laser scanning of good examples of the model could be used to produce CAD drawings for making moulding plates.  It would be possible using volunteer labour to do small runs of old models in a corner of the old factory.  Perhaps ex staff and modellers could make up the volunteer build team thus cutting labour costs to the bone.

 

Paint rooms still exist in the factory, but not in use.  Loco Bodies could be sprayed etc on site.

 

There's even a modern injection moulding machine still on site in the Hornby visitor centre.

 

Packaging could be the late 1960's/early 1970's packaging.  Box with inner tray, instruction sheet and strawboard sleeve or the 1973 packing box with tray insert, instructions and red Hornby lid.  All items which can be recycled so good for the environment.

 

An ideal candidate would be the old diesel dock shunter, a new five pole skew wound armature could be made for it and the old power bogie used as was with the later code 100 wheelsets, fit a DCC socket with LED lighting, glazing and a cab interior and you have a lovely fun model that would surely sell.  The new five pole skew wound armature for it could be sold by Hornby as an upgrade for all of us who own the old model so another revenue stream not to menton the other parts of the model.  Another candidate would be Stephenson's rocket, again with a new five pole skew wound armature for the X.500 motor.

 

"Made in Margate" could be price friendly if volunteer labour was used.

 

How about it Hornby?

[The son of Triangman]

In the visitor centre a modern injection moulding machine slumbers.

 

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[The son of Triangman]

A water or compressed air cooled complete mould and it's product. The cavity plate and ejector plates could be made from CAD drawings and 3D laser scanning, for models that no longer have moulds in existance.

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[The son of Triangman]

It's just an idea to kick around, but it could be done, Dapol did something similar with old moulds in the past, albeit with paid staff and it worked well.

[LCDR]

Dapol continued to manufacture former Kitmaster and Airfix (and still does) although the old tooling is starting to show signs of age. This was because the former manufacturers Rosebud Kitmaster and Airfix had ceased trading and were no longer making them.  Also they took over the S6 Hornby Dublo / Wrenn wagon models and uipdatec them with new plastic chassis and other improvements.

 

Dapol seem to have done this successfully.

 

Perhaps this would be the way forward with old Tri-ang & Tri-ang Hornby models.

 

It would mean finding a manuifacturer who could purchase the rights from Hornby to make a selection of former Tri-ang Rovex products. This way Hornby does not carry the financial risks of a heritage range, which I suspect they would be reluctant to do.

 

The stumbling block would be financing this project. I would happily do it as soon as I win the EuroMillions Jackpot, but until then I fear it will be simply a pipe dream.  😆

[JeremiahBunyan]

As much as I like the idea...I am going to have to say NO!

 

First of all, the tooling most likely doesn't exist. Scanning a model and recreating a set of tools, is a costly affair. Might as well just tool up the same prototype to modern standards. Not many people want models from the "ancient tooling". I also recall sometime ago someone saying that the market for such items is small and it's handled quite well by the second hand market.

 

Secondly, how big is the market? Is it large enough to warrant brand new tooling and multiple runs for Hornby to make a profit? I think there's other stuff that can do that, not necessarily ancient models.

 

How sure are you of UK production prices? Are people willing to pay the prices?

 

I, for a long time have been wanting to see things like the Polo tank wagon, Duracell tank wagon, KitKat van, Weetabix van, Prime Pork van, Fine Fish van, McVities van, Kellogg's van, Bird's Eye van, Red Arrow's van etc... Next year Hornby completes a 100 years, I hope they'd bring in a few heritage livery specials, even if it's on slightly different but similar wagons. But I don't know how viable the idea is.

 

I'd love to see Hornby do some retro packaging next year (by that I mean just the artwork on the box)

[Buz]

Hi jeremiabunyan

Do an evil bay search most of the wagons you mention will show up usually at reasonable prices

That's what I did with the old ones I wanted by the train load.

I also bought a couple of packs of modern Hornby metal wheels for them.

I also found a wheel wagon minus it's wheel load cheap it now has the old metal axled plastic wheels for a load I fitted modern Hornby metal wheels, so it doesn't have the derailment issues it did when brand new because of the light weight it had and I have a usable works wagon.

regards John

[Buz]

Hi all

I have just stopped counting at sixteen on the fine fish vans on evil bay so there are more than that avalable and they show up quite regularly.

the same with a lot of the others.

regards John

[The son of Triangman]

 

There is a very vibrant market for the older models, the range could be a collectors range with normal main range prices.  Not everyone wants the modern models that fall to bits as they run or in the boxes on their way from China.  Subtle updates such as DCC sockets, LED lighting, glazing, quality tampo printing and skew wound 5 pole armatures would make a big difference.  Set up costs would be high yes, but so is the manufacture of most things nowadays.  The range doesn't need to be massive and can be slowly added to over time, a couple of popular models voted for by modellers for a start is enough, remembering that skilled volunteers will be making them so the range can be kept small.

 

As for production costs, eliminating the labour cost and using volunteers will make the range very competitive with China made stuff, labour costs were one reason UK production ceased, others being the standard of printing in China couldn't be matched by the equipment at Margate and yes parts of the old factory roof needed tlc.  However part of the good part of the factory could be used.  It is still possible to produce in the UK at a competitive price, particularly if you eliminate one of the biggest costs of production which is labour costs.

 

LC&DR rightly points out Dapol made a go of producing older models from old tooling so there is a market for older models.  Finance would have to be raised, perhaps outside funding could be obtained.

 

Other positives would be the home of Tri-ang would be producing models once again, visitors could also see models being made so the visitor centre wouldn't just be a place of exhibits and a shop.  Labour costs change in countries over time, as China has developed as an industrial powerhouse labour costs have risen and will continue rising, other places will eventually have to be sought for production, it may even come full circle in time and part of the old factory would be ready to take on that role.

 

[The son of Triangman]

 

 

It is perfectly possible to update older models.  This cutaway has the later 1970's code 100 wheelsets from new, and LED lighting.  Later in the year it will have an 8 pin DCC socket PCB which I am working on at present, glazing and I may add a cab interior.  Then you have a modern heritage model.

 

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[96RAF]

Nice work Paul.

 

Trailing the battery like that reminds me of the old electric car jokes, ‘Range?...only until the plug pulls out of the wall.’

[Buz]

Hi all

I REPEAT

I am not prepared to pay top dollar for a made in Margate range,  unless it is genuinely made in Margate

and has a full and comprehensive spare parts backup like the original made in Margate models had

The only upgrading that is acceptable to the models is LED lighting and metal wheels to run on modern track and only maybe the glowing firebox  and chuff chuff on steam locomotives where practical

No other upgrading is necessary. and defiantly NO to DCC

If you really want the older models back how about retiring the modern train set buildings and bringing back the 1950's Victorian / Edwardian buildings and 1960's modern even the Dublo plastic ones they all had more detail than the modern flat ones do.

They also had a railway like presence that the modern train set buildings just don't have.

Its a slippery slope that I don't think is sustainable

There will also be just to much demand from people who don't understand what it's meant to be, to improve them to the modern standards of break it just by opening the box.

regards John

[Rana Temporia]

Great idea for SOME of the older models that are difficult to find but i wonder about pricing. If I wanted another shortie Princess i can often pick one up in reasonable condition for less than £10 in great working order and it will last virtually forever. A new one with perhaps a cheapie can motor is going to be £70 plus I would imagine. Who would buy it? 

Hornby could pick as many second hand chassis blocks and wheels off eBay for a song as they wanted so they wouldn’t need manufacturing, assuming the reproduction had the solid small diameter wheels. 

An option would be new bodies to fit older chassis but then even with the Princess, is it the screw down the chimney version or the one with the screwabove the buffer beam, Many members of the public wouldn’t know the difference and may suddenly find they have a body that doesn’t fit their chassis. The 3MT tank And Jinty also have a few variants. 

I have a blue princess so I wouldn’t buy one, I painted it myself and did some white/black lining on the computer. There was also a sticker kit available on line a while ago. 

Scanning rare items or parts for 3D print would be more useful, but how many people would want a scanned Baltic tank? I would like a Maroon one and I have a spare chassis but the Hiawatha front bogie and the special rear bogie are virtually impossible to get hold of at a sensible price, especially with the later couplings.

Many of the missing bits are already being manufactured by others, such as Peter’s spares, there is even someone making nose cones for the battle space turbo car. A while ago someone was selling resin replicas of the Australian multiple unit that was made by Tri-ang.

Replacement improvement parts would also be an option, I like the idea of 5 pole skew would armatures for older locos. However, how many people would actually know how to fit them? I can just imagine a sudden increase in the number of bearing clips and thrust bearings purchased for the dock shunter, blue Pullman, emu, dmu etc. As the originals find a new home in the carpet. I would hope it would improve business for those who do the repairs at the moment. 

An important point for Hornby might also be that if they were manufactured to the original spec, people might suddenly realise that they last longer and are repairable.....I think we have been here before. 

[The son of Triangman]

 

I give up, all anyone wants here is fall to bits in the box China junk.  Finished with this forum.

 

[walkingthedog]

That is a very stupid post M-R. If modern Hornby products were made in the UK we would all be very happy, but they are not, so we have no choice other that to give up the buying new models or buying old second hand British made models  that many of us already  have. 

[Rana Temporia]

I think the original idea was a good one, and some of the Wrenn Range has been produced in this way, I just don’t know how viable it would be when Hornby responded to the requests that went on for years to produce UK models to Continental standards. The problem is that now we have them they are vey fragile and restricted to second radius curves. With a few exceptions I would not buy new lcoos to these standards, I much prefer the older locos that last, that work when I need them to and are repairable. I definitely don’t want a ‘shake and break’. 

The other problem as I have already mentioned is cost, most of the Tri-ang and early Hornby locos are easily available in good condition second hand for much less than even the railroad range,who would pay more for a new one that may or may not be made to the original standards and have their origins in toys? Volunteers assembling them may help keep the cost down but thankfully here in the UK we don’t have the working conditions we had in the past where we didn’t have a minimum wage and minimum working standards. Look at any old photo of a model railway factory and they are full of women, probably working for a pittance which is why they are now made in China or some other Far Eastern country where wages are lower. 

Certain locos may sell well, some of the rarer ones or unreleased versions of ones that the tooling still exists For. I would still be interested to see how big the potential market would be for example, a prototypical green Baltic Tank, the continental prairie in any colour or the Transcontinntal OH electric in VR or Tri-ang railways blue. 

Spares have more potential, Tri-ang Pantographs of both types, missiles for all the Battlespace range, the plastic spacers on the armatures for the A1A/EM2 etc. Original transfers for the Transcontinental range, 3MT tank or the Princess Locos. People are already making spares and selling them, I hope they are doing well and if the original tooling still exists Hornby should do a bit of market research to see if it would be a viable and profitable side business to start off. People like MR and Sarahagain could let Hornby know what parts are needed in sufficient quantity, my guesses are above. 

[96RAF]

@Rana

Try double tapping carriage return to put some white space into your text as it is hard to read as is. I appreciate it looks OK on your screen but the forum compiler strips out the line spacing.

 

A more likely response from Hornby - if the tooling was still available - would be to flog it on to a short order spares supplier for them to make a going concern of it. Hornby in my personal opinion would not want to be chasing old brand support in their current economic state or even if at all.