Adding ballast

[keithp1707821843]

Hello

I am new to this hobby, but have a small set from the 1990's. I have decided to try and use it to create a small railway - one question do you pur the ballast on first and then attach the track or add the track and then add the ballast.

I thought you dfid it first, but I see some people add it after the track.

Cheers.

Keith

[walkingthedog]

It is very important that track is laid on a perfectly flat surface so lay the track first then add the ballast..

[Flashbang]

If you ballasted first the track wouldn't have a level surface and none would appear around the sleeper sides!

 

Ballasting is done ONLY AFTER the track is laid, wired and fully tested with various stock to ensure all is correct.  Then and only then is the loose ballast laid, teased into correct position with the aid of a artist paint brush, surplus removed and a dilute PVA/Water/drop of washing up liquid used to set the ballast. After 24 hours hoover the set ballast to remove any unstuck particles then touch in any areas that didn't bond correctly first time and again wait for all to dry then hoover etc.  At points ensure no ballast is able to get between moving point blades or into any holes drilled in the baseboard for point motors below the baseboard etc.  In fact I go back to the ballasted/glued area about every hour and by hand move each ballasted point over and back a couple of time doing this for about four or so hours. This ensures no glue or ballast is able to set the point solid! 

[keithp1707821843]

Great. Thank you. I did watch the video on the web site and they laid the ballast first, so was not sure.

I am very new to this, so I not even trying to hide any wiring, it will be a very simple small set up based on the basic Hornby layout in their book. At the moment I am struggling to find a suitable baseboard. I need something around 4' X 4', but hardboard, Ply & MDF are sold in 2' width. Anyone know where you get a baseboad that is suitable?

Keith

[96RAF]

You need a decent baseboard, ideally at least 9mm ply with a 25mm x 50mm (1” x 2”) perimeter under-frame and single cross brace for a 4’ x 4’ (1220mm square) board.

 

B&Q sell ply in half sheet sizes, ask their cutting table man about it. Or any reputable timber merchant will chop you off a bit.

 

MDF is heavy and hard to pin to as well as being a health hazard when cutting. Hardboard is useless. You may see boards made from a lightweight insulation type of fibre board called Sundeala. This has advantages and disadvantages - ask your local model shop, but it is pricey.

 

You can also use certain poly foam insulation boards, but not all are suitable and they need edge protection by way of ply strips.

 

There are on-line baseboard manufacturers who use thin mdf in ready to assemble kits, again at a price the convenience.

[GridNorth]

I bought 12mm ply from B&Q, 1500mm x 600 cut to size.  I've screwed it directly to a couple of cheap desks to create an L shape.  A little OTT perhaps but one desk already had 12mm ply in place for another project of mine so I needed it to match up.  With regard to ballast I've opted for Gaugemaster GM200 Grey Ballasted Underlay.  It's very realistic and far less off a faff to put down. I will be using pins to secure the track.

Al

[keithp1707821843]

Thanks for that. Tried to reply earler - but I was limited to two replies!!!!

Ok I now have the baseboard (4X4), and I have also some ballast, so I will re-read how to add this once I have the track put down. Talking about that, does anyone know of some other layouts for a 4X4 size apart from the four in the hornby track plans? I have another option from the Hornby scenics book, but thought there might be some more freebies.

Cheers.

Keith

[Rog RJ]

There are a few 4x4 layouts here but that size is very limiting.

[keithp1707821843]

OK thanks. There are a couple of interesting ideas there, so that is good.

Keith

[Buz]

Hi keihtp

You need good solid bench work to build on

track and wiring followed by plenty of play err I mean testing to make sure everything works as it should before ballast goes down

Its a bit late  but 4'6" X 4'6" is a better size for a compact layout that's how big mine is

and I have what I think is a nice layout which has:-

A continuous run

Minimum 2nd radius curves this is important if you want to run large locos when no one is looking 😆

Station with passing loop and dead end

Small goods yard

Small locomotive depot

Stopping place ( station even smaller than a Halt)

Fiddle yard

That's the railway.

The trains are short but that I don't see as an issue the extra 6" made it possible to get what I wanted.

regards John

[keithp1707821843]

Thanks. That sounds good. I have two boards to set up, one is the xmas tree layout, which will go under the tree. It is 1M X 1M, and will ahve a single oval track. As I had to but a dull piece of ply, I also have a 4'X4' piece or just over, on this I am going to create a real railway. Well try. I have obe other question though. I have the ballast now, but I have bought PVA craft glue from the works. Is that ok? or does it really have to be wood glue?

Thanks.

Keith

[walkingthedog]

PVA craft glue is what you need. Wood glue does the same job but is more expensive. 

[keithp1707821843]

If you ballasted first the track wouldn't have a level surface and none would appear around the sleeper sides!

 

Ballasting is done ONLY AFTER the track is laid, wired and fully tested with various stock to ensure all is correct.  Then and only then is the loose ballast laid, teased into correct position with the aid of a artist paint brush, surplus removed and a dilute PVA/Water/drop of washing up liquid used to set the ballast. After 24 hours hoover the set ballast to remove any unstuck particles then touch in any areas that didn't bond correctly first time and again wait for all to dry then hoover etc.  At points ensure no ballast is able to get between moving point blades or into any holes drilled in the baseboard for point motors below the baseboard etc.  In fact I go back to the ballasted/glued area about every hour and by hand move each ballasted point over and back a couple of time doing this for about four or so hours. This ensures no glue or ballast is able to set the point solid! 

I have a couple of follow up questions on this please. I watched the hornby video and I assumed that you painted the PVA glue onto the either the base board or the track after laying as suggested above. Then you add the ballast on top of the glue - is that correct? or do you lay the ballast over the track, then paint the glue on top? Sorry to appear 'dim' here, but I assumed the hornby video would show the correct method, so I am confused here.

Keith

[walkingthedog]

Apply the ballast to the track dry, be careful on points, don't get it in the way of moving parts. Once it is where you want it apply a mixture of PVA/water with a drop of washing up liquid. I mix it 20 parts pva to 80 of water. Drip the mixture on to the ballast with a pippete or eye dropper. It should spread through the ballast, that's what the washing up liquid is for. Leave it to dry. The stronger the mixture the quicker it drys. A weaker mixture takes a bit longer but drys like toffee not concrete, easier to remove if necessary.  I use one of these. Very cheap.

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[walkingthedog]

By the way you'll get plenty of other suggestions.

[Chrissaf]

Neither of the two option methods you put in your query text is correct.

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Some members feel that this presenter goes a bit over-board with regard applying excess diluted PVA to the ballast. But it does serve to show the principle of ballasting and covers the need to not use the PVA glue neat. That is to say, you make up a diluted PVA mix with water and liquid soap as WTD outlined above.

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You can also buy commercial ready made glue mixes for the same job. Deluxe Materials - Ballast Magic for example. But that is the expensive way of doing it.

[keithp1707821843]

Ok thanks. Its clear that laying the ballast is not quite as easy as the hornby video leads you to believe. Onbe other question - do you need to wet the ballast first? And do you need to use a 'spray', or could you use a brush?

[walkingthedog]

I don't wet the ballast.

 

I don't use a spray.

 

Do you need a brush for what? I use a brush to tidy up the edges.

Ballasting is very easy and I find it quite therapeutic. 

[Buz]

Hi Keihtp

Before getting to ballasting have your track thoroughly tested for all movements you plan this makes sure the track is connected properly and all the feeders you need have been attached and no pins are sticking up enough to cause problems

The ballast goes on dry it may be necessary to mix the ballast depending on what finish you want

in my case a mix due to what I wanted.

Spread it out making sure you don't leave any in flange ways  and take extreme care around points and crossings you don't want them obstructed by ballast or glue.

A paint brush is very handy for spreading the ballast.

I use 50/50 PVA glue to water plus a drip or two of dish washing liquid

I use wood glue because I always have a big bottle of the stuff around but cheaper craft PVA is just as good for this.

Once satisfied you have a neat appearance and all the flangeways etc are clear you can use like I do an eye dropper to carefully apply the glue mix 

You are better off doing two even three runs at the glue rather than flooding the place with it.

Also flick the points back and forth every few minutes to make sure they don't stick..

Once glued and dry clean the track test everything again this time your looking for that odd speck of ballast that always ends up where you don't want it.

regards John

[Chrissaf]

One other question - do you need to wet the ballast first? And do you need to use a 'spray', or could you use a brush?

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Wetting the ballast first is optional.....some do....some don't. But if you mean do you wet the ballast before laying it, then no......the ballast goes on dry.

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The ballast is very light. If you tried to use a wet brush to make it wet, then all that would do is undo all the work and effort you put into spreading it about evenly. So don't even think about using a brush to make the ballast wet. Even using a spray will move the ballast about like feathers in the wind if you use a spray gun that is too powerful or held too close to the ballast. Once the ballast has been spread out evenly and correctly located & positioned, then everything else you do to it afterwards in terms of fixing (gluing) it in place needs a very light touch.

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I may be wrong, but your follow up questions seems to me to infer that you haven't watched the video I provided a link for in my earlier reply. The video (in my opinion) clarified exactly the answers to your latest set of queries.

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[keithp1707821843]

 

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I may be wrong, but your follow up questions seems to me to infer that you haven't watched the video I provided a link for in my earlier reply. The video (in my opinion) clarified exactly the answers to your latest set of queries.

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Hi

Thanks for the reply.

Yes I have watched the video, and it is useful, I just wanted some clairty, as I dont have a spray to wet the ballast after laying. So now I am more happy - as I said I am new to this, so this is a bit of a test. To be honest I watched that hornby video and thought, yes that looks quite easy to me, so that is why I thought I would try, Any how taking all the advie in hand I think I will:

1. Lay the ballast and carefully use a brush to move it around, and keep points claer as much. Once happy..

2. I will mix the glue 50/50 and add washing up liquid - just a touch.

3. Now I wont wet the ballast as I dont have a spray, but I will carefully add the glue mixture in dribbles and proabaly so a section at a time. Finally I will move points to make sure they dont stick.

Does that sound about right?

Keith

[Buz]

Hi keihtp

Don't forget the pre make sure the track is good and works the way you want it to, it can be very hard to fix problems after it has been ballasted.

Dont forget you will have to clean the track once its all dry and check every thing again and posibly pick off any stray lumps of ballast.

One last thing be very fussy about the quality of job you do this is one job you have to get right.

regards John

[Bulleidboy]

You can get "spray bottles" from Homebase for about a £1. Also, personally, I think the 50/50 is too thick a mix for laying ballast.  If your track is wet, the glue mix will flow freely - I think two or even three parts water to one part glue works well. When spraying, try not to blow your ballast all over the place. As has probably been said (I have not read the whole thread), when the pva is first applied the track will look awaful, but by the time it has dried it will look great. You could experiment on a spare short (6") piece of track.

[keithp1707821843]

Ok thanks - testing first is a good idea actually!

I will try that.

Keith

[walkingthedog]

80/20 water/PVA works very well, and as I said the ballast  doesn't dry like concrete.