Points losing power

[keithp1707821843]

Hello

As some of you know I am new here and have received lots of good advice. Sorry but I have another issue. My first layout is a small 'test' it is a shunt layout with two points. I have laid the track and fixed it now with pins, however on one set of points - in the same place - the train stops. I have checked the points switch to make sure it works - and it seems too, but as it is a small layout, I have the power quite low, so it stops. Also only one way. If the power is increased it does not stop.

The train is brand new - a 0-4-0 model.

Is it normal for low power on points to casue a train to stop? IS there anyhting I can do? Oh the track is all new as well.

Keith

[Chrissaf]

It does happen with alarming regularity. It is a combination of poor Hornby point design coupled with the minimal pickup arrangements on most Hornby 0-4-0 locos.

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The insulated frog area on Hornby points is quite large compared to other brands and the pickups of 0-4-0 locos are close together. If on one side of the loco, one of the two pickups is siting over the top of the insulated frog and the only other pickup on the same side loses contact with the rail for any reason then the loco will stop. This is more noticeable when travelling slowly as there is very little momentum for the loco to carry on past the dead spot.

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Due to manufacturing tolerances, some locos and some points are more prone to this phenomenon than others. Many have reported that adding an additional track pin in the centre of the point as close to the frog area as you can get, can in some instances effect a solution. A pilot hole needs to be drilled in the point sleeper as Hornby have not put a manufacturer pin location there.

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Hornby have not really made any significant change to track product design for years. Other manufacturers have taken Hornby by and stole a lead in that area.

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[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi.

 

This sounds like the "dead frog" issue.

 

Where the two rails cross, there is a plastic section, the crossing or frog.

 

With slow moving short wheelbase locos, especially the 0-4-0 type, the pick up wheels can be isolated from the supply by the plastic, non electrified, part of the point.

 

There are other types of point, where the plastic part is replaced with all metal rails.

 

This is the 'live frog' type, which can involve more complicated wiring.

 

Some makes of track have dead frogs, but with the absolute minimum of plastic...lessening the chance of a break in pick up...

 

Hornby points do have quite a large plastic frog...

[keithp1707821843]

Okey dokey - as this is my 'test' layout, it is something else to learn. It does seem speed is key, so I will ensure I remember that.

Keith

[keithp1707821843]

I have now finished the 'ballasting' of this first layout, and on running the Godfrey loco, it stopped at the first set of points. I have carefully checked all around for ballast that is tuck and have removed a few bits, I have also cleaned the rails several times with a new rail cleaner. I have tried the loco again and it seems to stop at the same point, right in the middle of the points - where the plastic area is. SO I am guessing that your references to the dead frog are the explanation. However it does not stop if the point is set to the opposite side, is there anything more I can do to help? As I have said this is really a first attempt, at everything really, track laying, ballasting and scenic areas, but I would not like to have similar issues on my next (proper) layout.

Could you use peco points on hornby track?

[96RAF]

Peco and Hornby track and points are interchangeble. There is no real way round Hornby self isolating (dead frog) points apart from replace them with the slightly more complex Peco live frog points. It is simple physics that plastic (Hornby points frog) is non conducting so a loco that cannot bridge this part of the track will stop.

[walkingthedog]

I only use Peco track and have no problem on points.Their ordinary points have far less plastic  than the Hornby version. 

[keithp1707821843]

Ok thanks.

[morairamike]

 Welcome to world of model trains. It's a world that can be very rewarding and fun but can also be frustrating.

Hornby points are one of the frustrations especially with 0-4-0 locos. 

One item that I can't see in the above is that the points must be level or the short wheel base on the 0-4-0 will cause it to lift off and stop at slow speed. 

I have seen on another web site where one modeller used conductive silver paint and carefully painted the plastic frog, leaving a small gap at the apex to power the frog and effectively reduce the non powered section. 

This paint is used to repair rear windscreen elements. This is the type of paint

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Conductive-Silver-Paint-Varnish-Electrically/dp/B00PSKQZ60/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?adgrpid=53593267859&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyKrxBRDHARIsAKCzn8zMT-DtT8inQbUo_bMNmb3vXElKDY8u2TBVrJOU2ZR75DOm2FYbakIaAmFMEALw_wcB&hvadid=259113144924&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9045777&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t3&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4276698699202289748&hvtargid=kwd-314611941273&hydadcr=16879_1798492&keywords=conductive+silver+paint&qid=1579905020&sr=8-3

[Gordonvale]

Copper coated sticky tape is useful. 

It doesn't "wipe off" like some conductive paints do and it is solderable.

Conductive paints can have a biggish resistance too.

[Gordonvale]

I'm just wondering out aloud.

Has anyone done a comparison exercise of conductive substances?

eg. Tape v Paint v Wire Glue

[keithp1707821843]

Ok thanks again.

This was always a test layout, but in future I will make sure the points are suitable.

Keith

[EnGee]

Research 'stay alive'. These are little circuits that contain a sort of battery (actually a capacitor) that will power the train for a short while if it looses contact with the rails.

There are commercial ones available, however some of these are too small to make much difference. Chrissaf has done an excellent artical on how to make your own very cheaply from a few easily sourceable components. (I can't find the link at the moment, but well worth looking for.)

 

Personnally, I wouldn't be without them and all my smaller trains have them fitted. IMO they make a massive difference - but then I do like tinkering with electronics!

[Chrissaf]

Probably this link:

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http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/13404/?p=2

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[keithp1707821843]

Thanks. Sounds like an option, I would have to go commercial as I don't do electronics. I assume they work with non digital trains though.

[Rog RJ]

No, stay alives only work with DCC.

[96RAF]

All a stay alive module would do for a DC loco is make it run on after you have turned the controller to zero. All the fitting instructions referred to are null and void for an analogue loco installation.

[Chrissaf]

Stay Alives use components that can swell up and burst into flames if you apply a reverse voltage supply to them. This would definitely happen if you tried to fit a 'Stay Alive' to a DC Analogue loco......even a 'DCC Ready' one without a decoder fitted.

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In a DCC loco (with decoder fitted). The 'Stay Alive' goes into a part of the decoder circuit that is ALWAYS the same voltage polarity regardless of the direction that the loco is travelling in. In a DC Analogue loco the track voltage reverses subject to which direction the loco is travelling. Thus a 'Stay Alive' as others have already said is purely a digital loco power solution.

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If you go commercial and don't do electronics. Then you will have to replace all your current decoders for ones that have factory fitted 'Stay Alive' connectivity on them. Zimo decoders just purely as an example, other brands do 'Stay Alive Ready' decoders too. The articles in my previous link, describes how to fit a 'Stay Alive' to a decoder that doesn't have a factory fitted 'Stay Alive' option like the Hornby ones, but this involves very delicate wire soldering. This is in essence a level of electronics involvement that you have just stated you don't have the skill for.

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So you can't have it both ways unfortunately. You either embrace the electronics side of the hobby OR you only purchase DCC products that have the necessary modifications (including 'Stay Alive' modifications) done for you at the factories.

[EnGee]

I would definitely agree with Chrissaf that soldering a wire to a decoder is certainly not for the faint hearted, and certainly not a good starting point for you electronics career!!

 

However I would slightly disagree when he says you can't have it both ways. As long as you start with a decoder that already has the stay alive wires fitted (I have just installed a Zen decoder like this) then you can play away to your hearts content and won't do any damage. Just don't connect anything to the decode until you're sure it works.

 

You only need a small bit of Vero board and 3 components (and a soldering iron) and this could be your entry into the wonderful world of electronics!! It can easily be tested with a battery and light bulb. If it works you will be overcome with the pleasant flush of success and if it doesn't and you just end up with a blob of molten metal and a lot of bent wire - throw it away, nothing lost!!!

 

I appreciate that everyones view of life is different, but I think that the electronics is the most interesting side of the hobby.  Think: flashing lights, timed lights, motors, windmills, roundabouts, signals, points etc, etc. Although I suppose most of those things can also be bought commercially, but it's just not the same!

 

Go on - give it a go. 😀  (REMEMBER The above only applies to DCC and NOT DC)

[keithp1707821843]

Ok - on reflection I think for this first layout I will accept that the points will only work intermittently. Its a small layout really for testing all the things needed to build a model railway. So a good learning experience. By the way the PECO points - do they clip to hornby track easily or will that require some modifications?

[Chrissaf]

However I would slightly disagree when he says you can't have it both ways.

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Just to clarify......In my reply, I used the term 'Stay Alive Ready'. So my "can't have it both ways" comment actually related to decoders with wires for 'Stay Alive' factory provided. I did not mean only buy decoders that were completely factory 'Stay Alive Fitted'......that is to say decoders that come with the capacitors already factory attached.

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It is the attaching the 'Stay Alive' component to a 'non Stay Alive Ready' decoder that requires the skill, not constructing the 'Stay Alive' component part itself.

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By the way the PECO points - do they clip to Hornby track easily or will that require some modifications?

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As long as the PECO points are Code 100 rails then they will connect to Hornby track. However, only PECO track pieces that have a ST part number use the same geometry as Hornby.

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PECO do not make Electrofrog versions in ST track.....only SL track and SL track use a different geometry to Hornby and are designed for the smaller 50mm track spacing, whereas Hornby is based upon 67mm spacing.

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A full description of Hornby vs PECO track is posted here:

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/another-b2b-question/?p=1

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Peco ST (Set Track) Code 100 Track Parts

https://peco-uk.com/collections/peco/setrack+100

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Peco SL & SL-E (StreamLine) Code 100 Track Parts

https://peco-uk.com/collections/peco/100+oo-ho-16-5mm

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Peco SL & SL-E (StreamLine) Code 83 Track parts

https://peco-uk.com/collections/peco/oo-ho-16-5mm+83

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Peco SL & SL-E (StreamLine) Code 75 Track Parts

https://peco-uk.com/collections/peco/oo-ho-16-5mm+75

 

[96RAF]

It is not the points that are working intermittently, it is an individual loco‘s ability to traverse the inherent dead section on Hornby or Peco insul-frog points or not. The problem normally only manifests when a short wheelbase loco crosses such a point at slow speed.

 

If you are not keen on getting into the electronics of installing stay alives then consider using Peco live frog points, from the range Chris has highlighted, which help negate the short loco problem.

 

Try not to get hung up on things that may or may not be a problem. It’s supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, not something to beat yourself up over when a simple everyday problem arises.