Select problem

[Zapper]

Hi

my brand new select controller has stopped working. All LED's are flashing and the display has an upside down '03' showing ?

I can only stop it from doing this by disconnecting it from the track. What's happening ?

[Chrissaf]

You probably have a 'short circuit' on the track. And since the Select is brand new, then that infers that you are using the 1 amp power pack supplied with it. The Select with the 1 amp supply, handles 'short circuits' differently from the 4 amp power supply. It looks as if the 1 amp supply is reacting to the short circuit and cutting off before the Select. The power pack restarts, detects the short and cuts out again. This results with the power input to the Select going on then off then on again then off in an endless cycle. Each time the power is briefly on, the Select is trying to go through its boot up process but never completing because the power cuts off again.

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The above is just a theory as your description does not quite match exactly what is normally observed with a Select and a track short circuit when using the 1 amp supply.

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With the track disconnected so that the Select can power up correctly .... what is the very first number to appear briefly on the Select screen when powering up ..... a number between 10 and 20 is expected.

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TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[Chrissaf]

You will have to give us some clues else we will be quessing from here to eternity.

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• What if anything is connected to or sitting on the track.
• What form (design) does your track layout plan take. If it is a published plan .... what one .... if not published can you post a sketch (use the B&W Hill ico to the left of the Smiley to post an image).
• Do you have Accessory Decoders connected to your Select controller. If so, how many, what brand, what model.
• Have you been doing any track alterations immediately prior to this issue developing.
• The more info you provide the more it can help pin point the issue. Just because something might seem insignificant and not relevant to you, it may be the very clue we need to identify the cause.

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I ASK AGAIN

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With the track disconnected so that the Select can power up correctly .... what is the very first number to appear briefly on the Select screen when powering up ..... a number between 10 and 20 is expected. THIS IS IMPORTANT INFO.

[Rog RJ]

All sorts of things can result in a short circuit, such as stray bits of wire, track pins, even tools laying on the track.  It could even be the way that you have set the track up causing a reverse loop, has it worked at all?

 

Chris posted while I was typing.

[RDS]

@Pottertoncolin

I have removed your post from this thread, because you started a thread of your own less than 1 hour before, that is attracting answers. 

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/select-controller-shows-error-11/?p=1

There is no need to raise the same question twice by tagging onto another thread.

[Zapper]

I've built the 8 x 4 'winding branch' layout minus the siding on the inner curve.

my select starts with the number 20, then 30, then goes to the usual default 03. Or is it 30 then 20 ?

the problem seems intermittent as it was running fine this afternoon, the train got to a point and up popped the fault and the train stopped.

ive added a second track power input so the internal rails are live when the trains are running around the outer circuit. Could that be the problem ? , although I have tried disconnecting each power input in turn and it makes no difference.

phil

[jane1707819582]

If your wheel dimensions known as the back to back are incorrect then this can cause a short at the points.

[Flashbang]

It not showing an upside down 03 its actually showing EO which means a short circuit is being seen. EO is Emergency Off, Or Overload. What is causing this is impossible to say?   Look for a positive rail connecting to a negative rail or a loco thats has a defective decoder fitted.

[96RAF]

20 tells me that your Select is the brand new shiny face-lifted model. V2.0 is functionally exactly the same as V1.6 on the pre face-lifted model.

/media/tinymce_upload/3a65329321a63b558aa2419cbb59d216.png

[Chrissaf]

The initial number will be 20 (not 30), this tells us that you have the very latest revamped Select hardware running version 2.0 firmware. In reality, this firmware is exactly the same as version 1.6 running on older Select hardware. Hornby just named this version as 2.0 (20) to indicate that it was on the new revamped Select hardware platform.

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The problem seems intermittent as it was running fine this afternoon, the train got to a point and up popped the fault and the train stopped.

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As 'Flashbang' says in his reply above. What you described as upside down 03 is more than likely E0. Now that we know that your Select firmware is version 2.0, this tells us that E0 is the Select Error code for a track 'short circuit'. In Select firmware prior to version 1.6 (16) this error was indicated by OL (Over Load).

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Your revised issue post is a much different description to your original post and gives a lot more scope for suggesting causes. In general, and as a 'rule of thumb'. Short circuits that occur when a loco or hauled rolling stock traverses a point is because the rolling stock wheels are bridging two rails of opposing DCC phase (or termed polarity on a DC Analogue controlled layout).

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This may occur when the train is approaching a point that is set against the train (i.e set the wrong way and the train is approaching from the opposite of the 'TOE' [common] end of the point).

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Another reason that you might get a short on a point is because the wheels of the loco or rolling stock are either too wide apart or too close together. This is termed 'Back to Back' [b2B] as mentioned by 'jane2' in the previous post. This is an extremely common phenomenon and happens more often with rolling stock than you would expect.

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On 00 scale the B2B is typically 14.5mm +/- 0.05mm (or it might be +/- 0.5mm, I forget) so not something you can measure accurately by eye with a normal ruler. You can buy B2B gauges which are machined brass bars that are exactly the right distance apart and is used to make adjustments, or you can use a Digital Vernier. Search B2B or Back2Back or Back to Back on this forum or indeed Goggle to find examples.

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I've added a second track power input so the internal rails are live when the trains are running around the outer circuit. Could that be the problem ?

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As your layout is DCC and it is assumed Hornby track. Have you fitted R8232 Digital DCC point Clips to all your points? Given that your 'inner loop' is not always 'live' then it would appear that maybe these clips required for DCC are not fitted.

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Assuming that R8232 DCC Point Clips are not fitted for a moment. And you have made two connections from the Select controller, one to the inner loop and one to the outer. If one of these track power connections from the Select to the tracks are reversed then that will generate a permanent short circuit when any point cross-over routes are set to traverse a train between the two loops. I don't think this is your issue (because your issue is intermittent), but it might be and just needs checking.

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Another possibility that is also unlikely as your issue is intermittent, but just needs checking. Have you fitted any 'Insulated Rail Joiners' (IRJs) to the points that form the cross-over from the outer to inner loops. If you have (hence why you needed to add the second feed to the inner loop) and again one of the power connectors have reversed wires. Then as soon as the leading wheels of a train try to traverse the cross-over, the wheels bridge the IRJs and a short circuit is generated.

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In conclusion.

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Out of all these possibilities, I favour either running a train into a point with an incorrectly set route OR wheel B2B errors as the likely cause of your reported problem.

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If you have Hornby track and have not fitted R8232 DCC Point Clips yet, then these will improve your layout DCC power distribution and make all track live all the time. Again if not currently fitted, and when fitted you get an instant short circuit. Then that would indicate that your layout design has been configured with a 'reverse loop' in it, and the R8232 DCC Point Clips have just revealed it.

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Just to remind you. As this is an extremely long reply. Please do not use the 'Blue Button' and duplicate it. Just write your reply in the 'Reply Text Box' at the very bottom of the page.

 

[Zapper]

Many thanks. Lots to look at but at least I know what's happening if not the cause yet !

[Zapper]

It's got worse ! I've fitted the little metal clips to all points. For a while I could run trains around the outer circuit but most of the inner circuit is dead. I've tried cleaning the points where the inner and outer circuits join. Still nothing. Now nothing works. The select scream just flickers. what's going on and how on earth do I find and solve the problem ?

extremely exasperated!

phil

[pd91223]

What do you mean by "For a while I could run trains around the outer circuit but most of the inner circuit is dead."? Were locos running ok on the outer circuit and some part of the inner circuit after you fitted the clips? Do you still have the second connection to the track? If so remove that as it shouldn't be necessary with clips fitted.

 

The flashing sounds like an overload of the Select which is causing it to constantly reboot itself. Remove the clips, test that you can run a loco on the outer circuit with just power connected to that, then just connect power to the inner circuit and test that you can run a loco round that. Which of these work? How does the Select behave?

[Zapper]

The whole thing is intermitten. I was running trains around the outer circuit but nothing would work on any of the inner. Then the whole thing wouldn't work and the select was screen was flashing. i switched it all off and cleaned the points and checked the point clips were all in place. When I tried again 90% of the entire circuit was fine apart from two sidings off the inner circuit. Then the whole thing shut down again and the select screen went back to flashing. Next the outer circuit was fine but nothing on the inner. Now everything is dead again. It just seems all over the place to me ?

[Chrissaf]

Zapper,

In my reply to you ... bottom of Page 1 ... I wrote - see yellow highlight in extract paste below.

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/media/tinymce_upload/d683cfd9642c110cb09616495a5025d8.jpg

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You really do need to draw a sketch of you track plan and post it here as an image so that it can be reviewed for the presence of a 'reverse loop'. Use the 'Black & White Hill Icon' to the left of the Smiley face to upload an image. It will be held back for approval by Hornby Administration and may take a day or two to appear.

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Question: As well as fitting Hornby R8232 DCC Point Clips have you also removed all other power connection wiring to leave just a single connection from your controller to your track?

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[Zapper]

Yep. I've only got the single power supply

[Zapper]

/media/tinymce_upload/a9516fbedd5e9bedfd47391b709c4203.png

[Chrissaf]

In which case you will need to 'bite the bullet' and provide a sketch of your track layout plan for review. It is probably the only way to progress your issue further (if at all).

[pd91223]

@Chrissaf

 

From one of his previous posts I assume it's: http://freetrackplans.com/035-8x4-winding-branch.html

 

minus a siding.

 

Paul

[Chrissaf]

Thanks Paul ... that is most helpful.

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Zapper, if the plan linked to by Paul is your layout then it does not have a 'Reverse Loop' in it.

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If you only have one controller power feed connected to the layout as you indicated and all points have DCC point clips then there should not be a 'short circuit' on the track (assuming no rolling stock is left on the track or any other connections to it either).

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That only leaves two possible deductions. But to know which of these is the likely one, you have to decide whether the loss of power on the layout is due to a 'short circuit' this would be indicated by your controller giving a 'short circuit' error display. OR the layout has lost power due to a break on the path of the power distribution. In which case the controller would have no error displayed.

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It is not unknown for Hornby points to leave the factory with a fault that creates a 'short circuit'. Underneath each Hornby point frog area (similarly on the Diamond cross-over as well) are electrical connections that cross-over each other. This is to allow the power on a rail to bypass the plastic frog and continue onto the rail opposite on the other side of the frog. Sometimes the insulation between these electrical paths is poorly installed and the electrical paths touch causing a 'short circuit'. Sometimes these shorts can be intermittent.

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Unfortunately there is so very little we can do remotely to pinpoint exactly what and where the issue is. It needs a methodical diagnostic testing approach with a multi-meter to determine firstly whether the fault is a 'short' or an 'open circuit'. Shorts are by far harder to locate as it becomes necessary to disassemble parts of the layout into ever smaller sections to isolate exactly where the short is located. This is both time consuming and labour intensive.

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The use of multi-meter to do the diagnostic testing is (in my view) essential. Without one you are poking around in the dark wearing a blindfold. The link below gives a further link to some cheap multi-meters.

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The faulty Hornby point from the factory issue is described in a little bit more detail in this previous thread.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/loop-siding-short-circuit-problem/?p=1/#post-231478

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[Zapper]

Ok. Thanks for your help

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Zapper, first a couple of observations, then a fault-finding methodology you might use.

 

My first observation is that there is only a single loop in this layout, the one running around the outside. Everything else is just an extended and convoluted siding which in part "loops" on itself via the crossover.

 

There is nothing wrong with putting both DCC point clips on all points and also having a second connection to track.  The second connection must have the same rail polarity as the first (controller output A to track A and output B to track B).  Easy to check by tracing the A rail with your finger from one connection to the next.  Also, if you get it wrong, you will have an instant and permanent short circuit/overload on your controller.

 

Fault finding - start by disconnecting the entire siding at the top point leaving only your loop. Does this now work ok all of the time including with the point straight ahead then also with it switched towards the siding. Check it with and without the point clips fitted.  Does everything work ok all of the time now?  If so, go to the next step.  If not, that point (or fitting of the point clips to it) is faulty.  Replace it with one of your other points and see if the fault goes away to confirm.

 

Next step - connect only the single point to the siding point.  And check again if ok, with that point set both ways, and with and without the point clips.  Again if a problem, that second point or its clips are faulty. 

Third step - add the third point.  Check again. 

Subsequent steps - now add track pieces heading clockwise around the siding until you get to and add the next point or the crossover piece.  Once the point or crossover is added, check again.  Continue doing this until all points are added back, with the last one added being the faulty one when the problem recurs.

 

It is most likely you have a faulty point and the problem will recur as soon as you connect it to the layout.  Report back and tell us how you go.