Selling to the trade

[Lyd 85B]

After a recent clear out, I decided to sell a collection of more than thirty assorted steam model locos. Previously, I've used a well-known online auction site for selling individual items but couldn't face the hassle for so many and sent a detailed list to sixteen trade advertisers, of which just seven replied. Why do the other nine pay for advertising, just to ignore responses? Interesting, too, that the best offer was fifty per cent higher than those from the two major 'box shifters'. 

[atom3624]

Interesting indeed.

 

I understand what you're saying wrt Ebay - can be a pain, and the 'Ebay invoice' which appears nearly a month later, after you've finished fathing around with the packaging, addressing, taking to the PO, quite apart from the odd 'tyre kickers' and 'this things bust' merchants!

 

Al.

[Alessio]

Some of the traders may have simply looked at the list and decided they couldn't make sufficient profit, perhaps? Regardless, I find it odd that they didn't respond.

I am not surprised that your highest offer was 50% higher than the box shifters. The two biggest (as far as I'm aware) - the one in Liverpool and the one in a large city in South Yorkshire - seem to pay tiny amounts for second-hand stock yet price them absurdly high. It's becoming a bit of a joke.

 

A little while ago one of them posted that they'd added more pre-owned stock to their website listings, which was met with a barrage of comments and mock adverts such as 'Hornby Smokey Joe 0-4-0. Missing funnel and 2 buffers. Poor runner. £45' and 'Hornby Class 47. Non runner, no couplings, one bogie missing. £60'

 

For new stuff they're often the best price, so I'll use them. But for second hand, local model shops are so much better.

[Rana Temporia]

One of the traders referred to above has a presence on eBay and although the mock adverts above may seem extreme, they are not that far from the truth. I have seen them selling stuff I'd expect to pick up in a junk box for a pound or two priced at £30+ with a sign behind that says restoration project. I know they have overheads but a Tri-ang `continental tank with the funnel missing and otherwise damaged body that is a non-runner is not an epensive restoration project, it is a source of spares or junk. You can get a decent runner in good condition for <£10. 

 

I would expect that they may get some of their high asking prices in the shop where people may not be online and see how much less they can get stuff for but to have it side by side with other way lower priced identical items on eBay doesn't make sense to me. Yes, I have bought from their eBay store and had really good service but it has been sensibly competitively priced items. 

 

I have seen the other trader selling identical second hand items for more than they are selling the new item, admittedly the new item was less than half the MRRP but which would you go for? 

[ColinB]

Yes, EBay is a pain, you have to photograph the model think of a suitable listing and then worry if the Buyer does cause agro. I recently sold a 30+ year old loco, I tested it on a straight piece of track and stated that in the advert, but when the guy tried it on his layout it stuttered. He complained to me, but the reason I was selling it was it was a tender driven loco, which if your track is not perfect won't run very well. It was still in its box and original, otherwise I would have modified it to run better. Anyway he cleaned 30 years of grime off the motor and it ran ok. On the other side I made £300 selling about 8 locos, which I was very happy with (ok I have to pay EBay fees). Selling to a Model Railway Dealer is like selling your 2 year old car back to the Dealer. The other thing about selling on EBay is you realise what it is worth.

As for Model Railway Dealers not responding, I have put in 4 requests for information about articles to buy and technical queries over the last 3 months. Not one reply, obviously don't want any business. I put one into that firm in Liverpool about axle boxes on their class 66s and they were incredibly helpful.

[threelink]

Seems to me that until the covd pandemic is over so that train fairs can start up again we are stuck with the on-line traders and on-line auction sites. For all their faults the on-line auctions work and, like death and taxes, fees are fees wherever you go. At least if the price is ridiculous we don't have to buy and the message does get across - earlier this year one optimist offerred a box of tat at a loony tunes price on a certain auction site. It sat about for 6 months before the price was reduced to a more realistic level, whereupon it sold. The value of any article is the price that someone is prepared to pay and there are some buyers who seem to have more money than sense so I can't blame the traders for taking a punt. Unfortunately the wealthy ignorant just make life difficult for the rest of us.

[ColinB]

Funny that, my other hobby is building classic motorbikes. Quite often round autojumble you see the "chancers" trying to sell tat for stupid prices, over the year or so you notice they quite often still have the same articles plus usually a layer of rust where it got caught in a shower. I think as you say they rely on people that are desperate for parts and have more money than sense. Then of course you have the other extreme where someone has something up for a reasonal price and they still try to knock them down. I stood behind someone in a Charity Shop trying to get a discount on an item that cost a £1.00.

[Rana Temporia]

Three link, I for one can't wait for the model fairs to start up again as long as they are safe and managed properly. I really miss them, I enjoy 'having a mooch' even if I don't actually buy anything. 

 

I am worried about the future of them though. I usually have a chat to some of the stall holders, many of whom are considering giving up as they can make more money online without the hassle of having to travel, pay for a stall and risk theft/breakages etc. I was at one fair where someone dropped a loco smashing it to bits and then just walked off. The stall holder said that was all his profit gone for the day. Others say they can't compete with eBay, they are trying to make a profit and a living and if they give a fair price to someone for their gear they can't add enough to make it worthwhile and remain competitive. 

 

I have also noticed that some of the fairs I have been to recently have been quite poorly attended both by stall holders and by punters which wasn't the case even a couple of years or so ago. Also, as the venues will try to make up losses due to COVID they may out price these fairs. There used to be one at Heywood near Manchester but the venue put the prices up and made it a no-goer Even before COVID. 

[threelink]

Hello, RT. I too sorely miss and am concerned about the future of train fairs but not all traders like on-line auction sites. I was chatting to one trader who had given up selling on line because of problems with payment and people denying receipt of items or returning them deliberately damaged to justify the return. I had not noticed a fall off in attendances locally before the pandemic although the average age of attendees seemed to be such that, over time, numbers were likely to drop in any event ....I had a stall once to sell surplus items and yes, someone picked up a wagon and broke it trying to pullout a wheelset (one wonders why) but pretty soon coughed up when challenged. I would certainly have another stall if need be and if opportunity presented itself. I suppose we will just have to wait to see how the world looks when and if this wretched bug goes away. Meanwhile I have stocked up with enough bits and pieces to keep me modelling for a year or two and have just finished flooring the loft to build my dream layout so, with a bottle or two of decent scotch, I can isolate very happily if I sucumb to infection before I get my jab.It's just a nuisance that work gets in the way! Stay safe and kep modelling.

[joe_holmes1]

I recently had a sort through my collection and thinned out a number of items that were no longer required.

This included a number of loco's and wagons all in mint condition and still in their boxes.

I sent the list through to the "big boys up north" and a while later received their offer. Both offered roughly the same, about £65 for the lot.

My list included 5 loco's, one of which was the H&P 040 Pecket in mint condition. Plus various wagons.

I decided to place then on EBay and the few items that have been sold, after fees and postage cost are taken out, leaves me a couple of hundred pounds in credit.Plus i still have a few items left to sell.

Will I bother asking companies to buy my items again ? Probably not !

Roll on 2021 and hopefully the return of the Model Railway shows and Fairs. 😆

😎

 

 

 

[96RAF]

Many years ago in Cyprus I had the opportunity of buying a complete and extensive model railway collection, which when boxed filled an 10’ x 8’ shed. Boxed locos, layout boards, tools, controllers, train-sets, kits, raw materials, etc.

The seller was expecting something like €5000 but his wife said you will never get that.

He had sent a list to UK for valuation and his best offer just cherry picked the best items, on condition he paid the cost of getting them back to Uk. A local carrier estimated €800 to send the whole lot to UK.

I consulted my local UK model shop who advised that if the models were pristine - i.e. boxed and never opened then they would pay half RRP, so I should offer proportionaltely less than that. Other models no matter if Special Edition, etc if used in any way, including just unboxing them to fit decoders, etc devalued them by anything from 30-50% of the previous offer.

Therir advice was to offer €10 for small locos, twice that for larger ones and as much as €50-75 for pristine examples. A token price for other stuff.

When I added it all up the best I could reasonably offer the seller was €1500 to €2000 so I did not insult him him with an offer.

[BJT91]

Try smaller sellers in the second hand model train trade as they will probably give you a decent return. One I know of is Elaines trains and she only tends to deal in used models her email is elaine@elaines-trains.co.uk. I would also see if any of the preserved railways have a suitable shop that sell old models. I know the Erlstoke Manor trust at the Severn Valley Railway have a popular second hand model railway shop and they are sometimes after new second hand stock to sell, always worth finding out if you have a similar shop on a nearby preserved railway to you.

[ColinB]

As I have said before it is like trading your two year old car from new, back to the main Dealer or your classic bike to a classic bike Dealer. As the adage says "no pain no gain", so listing them on EBay is a pain and they take their cut, but the rewards can be great. That is why EBay is so popular. Ok there is 5% of the polulation that are a pain but most are ok. I recently put up an old tender driven Princess Elizabeth loco that I wanted £30.00 for, it sold for well over £50. So as long as you list the stuff for what you actually want, then even if you get the "wasters" buy it, hopefully the profits from the other items will ease the pain. That is the way I look at it. Remember the major retailers didn't get rich, by being a charity.

[Ducking Giraffe]

ColinB is spot on, by definition you will never get the "market value" from a dealer, they need to make a mark up to then sell it at "market value". Just look at any car guide, they give trade and private buyers price and surprise surprise they're different!.

.

Take a great set of 12 photos, waffle on about how great it is and would make a great addition to any layout and you'll get the maximum amount. There are economies of scale if you set up a nice "studio set" on your layout for shooting, and use a template on ebay. If you dont want to do that then get a dealer to do it instead - for a suitable price!

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"Here we have a superb Hornby 9f Evening star, with box, looks a lot more expensive than it is, low starting price, with collection from henley on thames, famous the world over for used Hornby 9f Evening stars. 

This year give the gift that says you care, a stunning Hornby 9f Green Evening star, ideal for those long lazy days stuck in the shed now that he's stuck at home until march at the earliest and probably a lot later once we have the christmas break and everyone goes mad and we're back to square one just dont tell me I didn't tell you so.  Ten main wheels! Yeah! Just count them! Spring buffers! Tender drive, none of this wimp's loco drive stuff, get some pulling power into your life! Sorry the box is a bit faded at one end, but put it on a high shelf and you'll never know. I mean, are you going to look at a box going round the layout all day? First to see will buy. Never raced nor rallied. " 

Nice bit of lighting, focus stacking merge to get it all in focus, bought £30 sold £52. Not a profit in my mind but adhering to my "cost neutral" hobby policy

[The son of Triangman]

 

 

The rule of thumb for trade buying in models is half the retail value for items under £300 and two thirds of the retail value for items £300 and over.  Items have to be in mint factory fresh boxed condition to get best price.  Most dealers use Ramsay's guide and toy fair prices to get mint boxed and mint unboxed retail values.  Models that have been messed with/improved will tend to attract less money in the general marketplace as will models that aren't in mint condition and will be priced accordingly.  Condition of a model is everything, the box with it's instructions and if it had accessories such as packet of crew add value to a model.

 

The half and two thirds rule is to allow for servicing, repairs, finding missing items, shop overheads, the cost of going out to buy things in, advertising the item for sale, any online auction commission etc. 

 

Ebay isn't relied upon by most of the trade as an accurate pricing guide as values vary so much from normal values to silly prices.  At the moment common to find items are being priced at silly prices on ebay, well beyond their marketplace values so it's a good time to sell on there, once the toy and train fairs start again prices will return to normal.

 

Beware of cherry pickers, dodgy dealers wanting to offer less than the standard buying in rules, the "I've only got x amount in my pocket" dodge.

Selling privately used to be a good option at the back of magazines like Railway Modeller, you will get time wasters, people wanting something for nothing etc., but in that lot will be genuine buyers.

 

How do I know all this, well I'm in the trade.

 

 

[Rana Temporia]

Well said MR. I'm not surprised dealers don't use eBay as a price guide. You have the dealers/chancers/jokers with stupid prices on there and then the realistic prices that items actually sell at. An item will reach it's price for the day which is affected buy the time of day, the day of the week and the month of the year. There are guides on when to post items to get the most for them. Also massively dependent on who is looking and what they want at that particular time. 

 

I have posted identical items with identical descriptions and got massively varying prices for them. No idea why, it was just what someone wanted on the day. 

 

Also, as you say beware of the chancers/hagglers/generally dodgy people who WILL try to rip you off. I have a note on all my items to say that anyone asking for how much for everything I have on eBay, to do a deal outside of eBay and all the rest will be ignored. They don't usually read it but get ignored anyway. 

 

For anything over 99p eBay now automatically adds an offers button to the item. You have to deliberately take it off to prevent it appearing and if your item doesn't sell and gets resisted, it re-appears and you have to take it off again. 

 

I don't often list items anymore as it has become too much hassle. At one point as Ducking giraffe mentions, I was funding my hobby through eBay and in some cases making money. It has become increasinlgly difficult to do that recently and the number of dodgy people involved, both buying and selling has increased. 

 

I can't wait fro the train fairs to re-start, at least there you can see what you are actually buying and quite often 'do a deal'. The traders there make a living from selling items and want your gear and will usually but not always give you a fair price. 

[ColinB]

I must admit on some of my locos on EBay I got offers for less than the "start price". My "start prices" are always what I think it is worth and are generally less than the others on EBay, so when I get an offer of less than the start price, I usually just politely respond with the term "I would rather let the auction finish". I must admit EBay is good in some respects so as MR was saying a loco that has been improved and thus not in mint condition fetches less, but to the average user if the loco has been converted to say DCC or had extra pickups added, if it is done properly to the average user it is worth more than the standard one. Similarly if the loco has crew fitted then you have saved the price of fitting them yourself. 

[Nigel1707822225]

I was looking for a second hand DCC controller so asked around on Facebook.

I said I could afford 30-40 pounds as I am unemployed.

I was told in no uncertain terms they didnt go for that and £70+ was the going price.

Next day one went for £35 on ebay.

 

[Rana Temporia]

That is a good thing about eBay, decide how much you want to pay for something and eventually you will get one. It may not be in perfect condition and sometimes you have to do a lot of watching, you just need to find one that other people have missed. Spelling mistakes are good for that, or items described wrongly. They don't seem to happen as much as they used to anymore. 

[96RAF]

Local selling sites accessed from FB Marketplace are a good way to sell a range of things. our local ‘net’ comprises more than 20 sites and it is surprising how far folk will travel to buy thing of comparatively low value.

 

I have sold things within half an hour of posting them on such a site, but you have to price realaistically and as stated you will get the ‘can you deliver, will you take less’ brigade, whom I don’t even respond to. I also have stuff that has been on there for over a year and it would seem nobody wants it even at a relatively low asking price.

 

Our local sites have a wide selection of model railway stuff, many being job lots and some the more specialised single items.

[TrainDriverJ]

I have never used auction sites, however, my wife uses Facebook Marketplace. I completely echo RAF96’s comments.

 

A couple of years ago her mother died and we had to sell the house and contents. We thought about just getting someone in to take everything away, or giving to charity, or dumping a lot of it. A friend mentioned, “Why not sell items on eBay, you have plenty of time before any house sale goes through.” We though it was too much hassle to list everything and go through all this at the same time as dealing with the estate. Another mentioned Facebook Marketplace. They said “No fees, take a picture and instantly post and see who comes - you’ll be surprised.”

 

People actually turned up to buy £2 plant pots and some from a considerable distance away. By the time we sold the house she had practically sold everything from expensive furniture to cheap tat. She realised several thousand pounds for the estate. Some items sold immediately, some were on for a few months. She regularly relisted (you just press a button) continually dropping the price of unsold items. She did respond to offers, particularly people wanting to buy more than one item, and she offered a discount were appropriate.  After that experience she now sells all our stuff that we don’t want.

 

Some people might not like the idea of people coming to the house and I can understand this as it is a personal choice. We always said to people that if it was not what they wanted or they were in any way unhappy just bring it back and we will give you your money back. Not a single person has done this so far. In fact, many people have thanked her for the items. Maybe we are selling cheap but it is the price she wanted and she is happy.

 

It really isn’t that difficult. She now agrees to post items as long as the people pay by Paypal Friend upfront. We have even dropped of stuff locally while we have been out shopping. We said we would deliver if was not really out of our way. Some even give us petrol money.

 

We may have been very lucky but up to now have not had a bad experience and we are literally several thousand pounds to the good for something we never considered doing.

 

I honestly don’t know how good this would be for selling model items but would suggest to anyone to give it a go. It really is simple and costs absolutely nothing. You may even sell all the stuff that has been lying around for ages and get yourself the new “Rocket” that has just been announced!

[VESPA]

Selling to the trade is possibly the worst way of realising anything like true value. They have to add 20% VAT to their selling price and also mke a profit which leaves you, the owner, well and truly ripped off. I love some of the sales from Liverpool's secondhand, with some items just pure junk at silly prices. Some listings even have the tender the wrong way around in the photo. That I assume is done by someone with no knowledge of railways.The dreaded valuation book akin to Glasses Guide for cars is used, and they always use the lowest trade in value. So a very well cared for car with below average mileage and FSH will get the same price as the battered,same year, uncared for heap with 120,000 miles on the clock. Loosely translated, your mint boxed,unrun item will get the same trade in as the chimney missing, bogie missing, scratched, nonworking, unboxed piece of junk that appears on the website. Personally if I was the proprietor of the shop, junk like that would be in a scrap box in the shop or under "for parts" at the parts value ie 4/5 of nothing. I love to look at the "previously owned" (destroyed) section on a daily basis for a laugh. 😀