Elite and Select Controllers Shorting without being plugged in to track

[Fritham Jct]

Wonder if anyone can help.

I think my track has shorted my DCC elite and select controllers. I've unplugged them from the track and every time I turn them on I get the following...

Elite - it loads up but then keeps restarting, and there was a bit of a burning smell.

Select - Keeps going to 'OL' (flashing), and ticking or just has a blank screen and ticking.

My hypothesis is that I'm wondering whether my point motors reset the polarity of the frogs on some points as I started getting a few sparks as locos went over the frogs. I'm using peco bullhead oo points with DCC Concepts Cobalt digital point motors.

Any help gratefully received.

[ColinB]

I would hope the overload protection is better than that, but a burning smell doesn't sound good. Have you tried leaving it for say twenty minutes before you try again, just in case there is some thermal fuse that needs resetting. At least if it is starting up that means you haven't damaged the micro, which if you have damaged something, it should be fixable. There is something very wrong if wrongly powered frogs can damage the controller, what usually happens with mine is the Elite buzzes and then gives the error message.

[Chrissaf]

Regardless of the cause i.e switching frogs etc. Your observations of the Elite & Select controllers when not connected to anything would indicate that they are both damaged and maybe be beyond economical repair, particularly the controller that smells of burning.

What you have not made clear in your post is how you were using your two controllers. They must not both be connected to the track at the same time.

If the Select is being connected to the Elite as a "Walkabout" controller, then the Select must not be connected to its own power supply AS WELL as not being connected to the track. The Select gets its power from the Elite it is connected to via the R8266 Walkabout cable.

If instead of a "Walkabout" configuration you have implemented a twin DCC bus system, the Elite to control locos and the Select to control points, but then implemented switched frog power on Electrofrog points using terminal 3 on the iP Digital point motor for the switched frog power. Then that is almost certainly what has damaged your controllers. By wiring the Electrofrog point frogs in that configuration using terminal 3 of the iP Digital point motor, you are connecting together the output of the Select to the output of the Elite every time metal wheeled rolling stock goes through a point. This is technically the same as connecting both controllers to the track at the same time and will damage them. When using twin DCC buses (one for locos and one for points) using iP Digital point motors with Electrofrog point switching, then you must use terminals 4,5 & 6 for the frog switch. Terminals 4 & 5 go to the Elite bus and terminal 6 goes to the frog. Terminal 3 on the iP Digital is left spare and unused. This ensures that only the Elite DCC power supply is present on any part of the track. Terminal 3 can only be used if the SAME controller is being used for both Track and Points.

Note: If after re-wiring the frogs to iP Digital terminals 4, 5 & 6, locos short circuit trip the Elite [when Elite & Select repaired or replaced], then reverse the wires on terminals 4 & 5.

If however, both controllers have gone faulty as two isolated time separated events, then you have either been very unlucky or done something seriously wrong.

This is a very long reply and this is your first forum post. Please do not try to reply using the "Blue button with white arrow" as this is not a "Reply to this post" button. To reply scroll to the bottom of the page and write your reply in the "Reply Text Box" and click the green "Post Reply" button.

[Chrissaf]

Colin, the clues were in the OP's post. The frogs sparking, two controllers and using Electrofrogs with iP Digital frog switching. See the middle section of my reply for details. Which I was still busy typing as you posted.

[ColinB]

I figured he was probably using the Elite for the track and the Select for the points. I just assumed that the frogs would be wired to the main track supply. I did wonder why you would be using both. He has obviously just blown up the output stage which should be repairable, the micro is still working as the displays still work, so the 5 volt power supply is still intact. It is when you have to change the micro it becomes uneconomic. So possibly the 12 volt supply and the driver transistors/FETs, unless it has taken out the micros output ports for the DCC channel, but hopefully they are still ok.

[96RAF]

Hornby generally won’t fix them down to electronic component level on the boards.

Lendons may offer to fix them but their Ts & Cs say they offer a warranty repair service not a general repair service. The OP would have to talk to them about it.

I agree with Chris’ diagnosis that the two controllers have accidentally ‘touched base’ which is a definite No-No in DCC.

I agree the Elite has likely failed per the picture HowBi posted many moons ago which I repost below.

[ColinB]

So 96RAF what is that component?

[Howbi]

@ColinB......those are the power Mosfets on the track output, the heatsink would normally cover them. In my case, there was insufficient heatsink paste applied after replacement and they eventuallly overheated to the obvious result......HB

ps........I can still use this Elite for programming.

[ColinB]

Thanks Howbi, I suppose trouble is when they blow they normally take the preceding device with them which I imagine is the output port on the micro. He might be lucky though it doesn't always happen. It is probably worth trying to replace the component and see if it fixes it. If it was mine that is what I would do, you might have to bridge the burnt out tracks though.

[96RAF]

@colin

Referring to the wiring schematic for the Elite - Indeed the PWM output to these components is fed from the main PIC.

I think the OP has self trashed an expensive pair of controllers by way of the point motor aux micro-switches being incorrectly used (back ref to Chris’ diagnosis).

[ColinB]

If definitely appears that way.

[Fritham Jct]

I've left it for a day or so. It switches back on and loads up however as soon as I turn the dial it goes to the overload screen and cuts out.

I don't think it was the frogs that caused it as I've tested them and the polarity is fine.

[Howbi]

@Fritham Jct..........If you scroll down to the bottom of this page you can type your reply post in the Reply Box and hit the green button.

[Chrissaf]

You still haven't confirmed how you are using the Elite and Select controllers [refer to my previous reply]. This really is critical information that we need to progress your issue further.

[ColinB]

So from you latest description you can power the Elite up and and it goes to the main screen. It is only when you touch the dial you get issues. So what happens if you don't touch the dial for lets say 2 minutes.

[Fritham Jct]

I was using them via the connector lead with mains power going in to the Elite and the track power being fed from the elite. The only cable going in to select was the connector cable from the elite. This has worked fine for ages.

When the elite stopped working, I thought I'd try the select with mains power in to that then the track power coming from the select as well. The elite was completely unplugged at this point.

I've subsequently found there was a loco that was very slightly derailing on the front driving wheel that was catching an opposite rail as it went over a point, this was causing the short. I've now tried it with a friend's controller and all works fine.

However I am still left with my own controllers not working.

[Fritham Jct]

So from you latest description you can power the Elite up and and it goes to the main screen. It is only when you touch the dial you get issues. So what happens if you don't touch the dial for lets say 2 minutes.

 

 

It stays on until the dial is touched. However it then shorts and won't boot up again for a while properly. EG It starts the cycle and then resets on a kind of loop.

Mod note: edited to correct the blue button misuse error. Not separating the new text from the quote

[Fritham Jct]

@Fritham Jct..........If you scroll down to the bottom of this page you can type your reply post in the Reply Box and hit the green button.

 

 

Ok thanks I'll do that.

Mod note: post edited to correct the misuse of blue button error where the new text was not separated from the quote text.

[Chrissaf]

OK thank you. At last we can discount the frogs as being the possible cause of your controller damage.

Your post further above confirms that you were using the Elite & Select in "Walkabout Mode" in an offically supported configuration.

Your controllers do appear to be significantly damaged and will need repair or replacement, but what caused this damage is a mystery as long as there was never a situation where both Elite and Select were physically connected to the track at the same time, even if only one of them was connected to mains power at that time.

[Fritham Jct]

Yes I can confirm only the elite had power from the mains to it and only the elite was powering the track.

I emailed Hornby last week but still awaiting a response. What would you suggest that I do next?

[Chrissaf]

Chase Hornby to obtain a "repair returns number". If the Warranty has expired then Hornby may return the controllers as being uneconomic to repair.

Do not rely on email communication, Hornby have a history of not responding to emails promptly, you will get a much better response using phone communication.

You could alternatively conclude that paying to repair or replace if outside Warranty is not worth it and look around for an alternative controller.

[Fritham Jct]

Thank you :)

[Chrissaf]

Repeat of late edit to my previous reply.

Do not rely on email communication, Hornby have a history of not responding to emails promptly, you will get a much better response using phone communication.

[Fritham Jct]

I was getting that sense!

[Chrissaf]

Thank you for complying with Howbi's request to use the 'Reply Text Box'. Notice how the last few posts in this thread flow more efficienty from a 'readers' point of view since you started using it, and hopefully you found the text box easier to use than the blue button.