New steam generating locos

[DarkRedCape]

I know there are going to be no definitive answers here because this range isn’t released yet, but steam generating locos do exist, so we have some references.

Can these locos (or steam generating locos in general) be used with the steam generator turned off so that they run just like a normal loco?

How do these systems work when the water reservoir runs out? I know on some systems you can damage the ultrasonic pad if the system runs without water, but I assume it will have an auto cut off system, providing there is space enough inside for all of this.

[96RAF]

Are you asking if these locos can be used on a DC layout and if so does the ASU default to safe (off).

Under DCC running the ASU will be under user control of a yet to be released Hornby sound decoder function.

I suggest asking Hornby tech services - email in the contact us area.

[ColinB]

It is all very vague at the moment. Hornby are saying that the decoder will be in the tender, but if they stick with the 4 wire connection between loco and tender there are not enough wires to control the steam generator. It could be it is like the fire box glow, just works off DC or the raw DCC signal, there again it needs the motor input to regulate the smoke and most users would want to switch it on or off. Last time I asked some bright spark said that is why they hay gone to 21 pin decoders but missing the obvious observation that the decoder is in the tender and currently there are only 4 wires going to the loco. Perhaps they are going to use a 6 way connector but who knows. Unfortunately, nobody on this site or the Hornby catalogue has given anymore information. I imagine someone in their tech department knows how it is all going to work but so far they haven't explained it.

[96RAF]

The first person to get a 21-pin steam loco will be able to answer your question Colin. My guess is multi-pin magnetic connector.

[DarkRedCape]

Under DCC running the ASU will be under user control of a yet to be released Hornby sound decoder function.

 

 

This essential answered my question.

 

 

Given that these locos are still in the development and testing phase, I’d be surprised if Hornby would, or even could answer much about them with any certainty, but no harm in asking I suppose.

[ColinB]

Well 96RAF that will probably be me seeing as I have two of them on pre order with Hornby (Flying Scotsman and Black 5). There are a lot of variables that Hornby need to resolve before they release them, so I don't expect to see them for a very long time, hence the reason I pre ordered them with Hornby. That way hopefully I dodge the price increases.

[DarkRedCape]

Normally I never do the pre-order thing, especially with new tech simply because of bugs and glitches and design flaws, but this hobby can sometimes be, order early or you don’t get at all.

The new Hornby steam locos are all big tender engines, but I’d love to see this tech in smaller locos, even though I understand there is a limit to how much this tech can be shrunk down to.

I noticed that the new 21pin decoder is one of the furthest things away in terms of release date, so presumably the TTS version, or whatever they end up calling it, is even further away?

[ColinB]

That is the thing I find interesting about Hornby, stretched to the limit with their current range of products, most are late or very late. My Evening Star was in the 2021 catalogue issued in January and I have just received it about 18 months later. So why on earth would you dilute your design effort by branching into TT scale, or is it, they see their OO market disappearing and hope to make money doing something else. From my point of view I have enough difficulty fitting DCC decoders into a lot of their OO scale locos, so TT would an extreme task. Perhaps though, you just use DC on their TT models.

As to the steam locos, I really do wonder if we will ever see them.

[SteveM6]

I am inclined to agree with Colin, there is a danger that this TT adventure will dilute their existing business to the potential detriment of the OO range.

Will the new scale attract a significant number of new hobbyists? I doubt it.

Will the new scale convert those with extensive N or OO layouts? I doubt it.

I hope I am wrong, for the sake of the company and its customers. I doubt it.

On the plus side, the locos are a good few quid cheaper than their OO equivalents although I suspect that will change in time.

Colin, regarding decoders - if they provide the socket, then Next18 decoders are small enough to fit, its possible that 21 pin decoders may fit inside tenders (guessing without measuring by the way). Next18 are used in the few N gauge locos that have sound by the way, so they are small enough.

[Bulleidboy]

Whilst I'm inclined to agree, I think if I were starting today from scratch, I would consider TT120 - the downside is there is not, at this time, a lot of choice of equipment and ancillaries. Whereas with 00 gauge, the choice is endless - so a difficult choice, which will probably be decided on the space you have available.

I cannot imagine for one moment anyone scrapping their N or 00 layouts to start a TT one.

In due course, as I think RAF96 mentioned, Metcalfe for example, will start making kits for this gauge - but they won't jump in until they see TT taking off in a big way. I'm sure there will be a number of "cottage" industries making items in due course.

Time will tell.

Getting back on track - I have the Black 5 with steam on order. If this works well for Hornby, I can see it appearing on many more loco's - more moneydisappointed_relieved

[DarkRedCape]

As was mentioned before, the initial starting price for the steam generating locos was surprisingly low, and I think they’ve had two, maybe even three price increases. Hornby are going to have to charge almost £300 for each loco, or their margins are going to likely be slim.

I don’t personally see the steam system being something that becomes common simply because of the complexity and time in which it takes to make them, and their profit margins on these models.

The only way I see them becoming standard practice is if somehow the new locos are just mind blowingly good in terms of performance, reliability and build quality, and were released in a time frame that wasn’t years after the initial release announcement. I’d happily pay for that.

As for the TT range, there is also the risk of, people invest in this, Hornby realise they can’t make money from it, scrap the range, and people are left with a setup that is dead in terms of new products.

[Tony57]

Whilst welcoming the new steam generating idea why Hornby could not have waited until perfected and fitted to production locos before advertising it to the world? One would ask could it be fitted to HO scale steam locos in the international brands section or Steam punk locos?

I feel Hornby will lose some of it's market share in the OO gauge market as its getting very crowded out there, so branching out into new market would be a benefit, However there will need to be a real commitment to keep all the gauges going from Arnold N gauge, the 4 HO gauge makes in the international section, Bassett Lowke Steam Punk, Oxford Rail and Hornby OO gauge and the new TT120 gauge, not forgetting Airfix, Corgi and Scalextric and others brands in the group that need to be kept up to date with new products.

[ColinB]

I agree Tony57 but that seems to be the way Hornby works, they announce something by putting it in their catalogue and then if the technology doesn't work or is too costly to build they quietly drop it. Most other company develop the technology in a small volume product, so if it fails, they haven't lost much and then later on put it into their mainstream product. I bought a new carriage off Hornby and it came with some really nice magnetic couplings that looked like the flexible pipes between carriages. Can you get them as a spare part? No not at the moment and sales didn't know when they would be available.

[Simmo009]

I spoke with Simon Kohler about this model on the Sunday at GETS. He claims they have the wheel motion, sound and smoke all synchronised, and thinks delivery is 12 - 18 months away. Also, the first 2MT versions could be as soon as March next year. The models on show looked fantastic. And the EP of the FLIRT was breathtaking.

[ColinB]

Well Simmo009, Jenny Kirk demonstrated a Tornedo with all that about 6 months ago, the difficult bits are how you fill it up reliably and how it links to the tender. Simon's dates don't add up either, delivery 12-18 months away is not March next year. Sounds like the salesman in him talking.

[Simmo009]

The Tornado was a custom modification, costing as much again as the base model iirc. Not saying Hornby are first with this, but they have got their system sorted, so another hurdle cleared on the way to manufacture.

Regarding the dates, it is quite clear that 12-18 months is in reference to the steam generator models. And that the March 2023 is in reference to the 2MT, hence the use of 'also' and a new sentence.

I am merely relaying some information which I thought pertinent and that would be of interest to other users.

[ColinB]

I was not getting at you Simmo009, just highlighting the over optimistic bubble that Hornby live in, you just asked the question. I know about the cost of that model and one of its big issues was how to fill up the steam generator with water. Anyone that has worked on anything remotely technical knows that the detailed engineering is the thing that makes or breaks projects. There is also the question of cost, as you pointed out the one Jenny demonstrated cost a fortune to modify, so although Hornby get a reduction by designing it upfront rather than a retrofit, I still think my preorder price is difficult for Hornby to achieve.

[96RAF]

I thought we had discussed this steam generator model to death but apparently not.

The cost of any development model is disproportionate to its shop value. Such costs are amortised against future production pricing.

As SK says they have developed the synch side of things. The basic mechanics of the steam bit has always worked well and the only thing preventing it being widely used in small locos is finding room for the tank which integrates the ultrasonic generator. This can be particularly difficult in centre motored diesels for instance. As each ASU (atomiser steam unit) is bespoke to a loco then there can be no one size fits all retro kits.

Wheel vs chuff synch - there will be an improved TTS type non-synched chuff whereby BEMF and throttle vs road speed determine which chuff band is selected but for accurate chuffs you need optic sensing to trigger chuffs exactly at lower speeds where you can relate chuffs to spokes, thereafter the wheel is moving too fast for it to matter so the regular chuff system takes over. With diesels the task is easier as it simply matches engine revs to output, not that there has been any talk of smoking diesels yet.

[ColinB]

I know all about this price thing, when I worked on car radios the cost our firm sold them for was a small fraction of what the aftermarket charged for them. I quite often had to thrift code so that it would fit in a smaller micro because it saved a euro. There again we were making hundreds of thousands so the cost of parts reduces dramatically. I am sure Hornby have done their numbers but they don't have similar volumes so their costs will be higher. I currently have a steam generator Black 5 on the preorder price of £249.99, so assuming that includes a TTS decoder at £50, the loco is about £200 at todays prices, so the steam generator is free. Now I know I am using retail prices, but if you just think about it for a while even if your manufacturing is super efficient, there is got to be a lot less profit than for a normal loco with no steam generator. The Flying Scotsman is about £20 dearer, but even that figure seems a bit cheap.

[JJ73]

Well Dark red I have a 4-4-0 LNER Class D49/1 'Cheshire' Loco which steams - I couldn't get it to steam at 1st b/c when I took it apart (

) you will see a few wires & a wire which was not plugged in to any thing & some 1 told me where that wire went & now it works!!!

🙂🚂

[LesXRN]

Hopefully we will find out more when the new TV series airs.

[96RAF]

Hopefully we will find out more when the new TV series airs.

 

 

Do we know when this is. Presumably the Yesterday channel again.

 

 

[DarkRedCape]

https://www.collectors-club-of-great-britain.co.uk/news/hornby-a-model-world-series-2-announced/

Points to airing in 2023 and will indeed be on Yesterday.

I would have liked to have seen more mechanical stuff, more workshop and loco development stuff. Wasn’t a fan at all of the silly stuff Sam did.

[Engine shed 1]

Apparently according to the guys at Hornby on the Hornby stand at Milton Keynes it's going to be on in January 2023 thay are still filming bits at the mo according to simon and montana

[Richard-349508]

Well, I've ordered two locos, first one this summer, so will find out.