Unrebuilt Merchant Navy

[LCDR]

No - I'd put money on a D20, J21 or a Q6, before a Merchant Navy, even Grey Funnel!

[Fazy]

So we not taking about the air smoothing around the cab then or is just bb class. What's a grey funnel. You forgot a stainer 2-6-0

[walkingthedog]

Air smoothing the whole loco fazy.

[LCDR]

Fazy,
The Merchant Navy class and the later built West Country / Battle of Britain class were very similar in appearance. The last 10 MNs are not easy to tell apart from the smaller WC/BoBs. The MN is 6 inches wider and 2 feet longer, and thus heavier.

In theory the MN is a more powerful locomotive as it has a bigger boiler, but in practice they did the same work. The MN is classified 8P by BR and the WC/BoB was classified 7P/5F. Because the MN is heavier it was not permitted to run over some of the routes

that the WC/BoB was permitted to traverse. The WC/BoB class is frequently called 'Light Pacifics' for this reason.

The air smoothing refers to the entire boiler shrouding originally applied to both classes, and not just the cab. It was more rectangular

than the 'streamlining' applied to the LMS Coronations and LNE A4s, but incorporated a shaped area around the chimney intended to lift smoke clear of the driver's field of vision. This was achieved by a series of trials with smokebox shape on the first two

locomotives, and was not originally successful. The intention was to remove the air pockets created along the boiler of a conventional locomotive by the junction between the boiler and running plate and such things as splashers, and more importantly to allow

the locomotive to be cleaned in a mechanical washing plant. The first reason was really just cosmetic, and the second never materialised.

'Grey Funnel' was a Postman Prat invention, it refers to the Royal Navy whose ships have a grey painted funnel.

As the class is MERCHANT Navy class the name is invalid.

I never even considered the Stanier 2-6-0, which is a POST Grouping design. You need to read the earlier posts to see why.

[Postman Prat]

Yes, please!!!

LC&DR said:

No - I'd put money on a D20, J21 or a Q6, before a Merchant Navy, even Grey Funnel!

[forester]

The cleaning aspect of the air-smoothed casing is quite interesting.

One would have thought that even without the use of carriage-cleaning plants the original locos would have been much easier to keep clean that the rebuilt ones. You could imagine

cleaners preferring to work on a spam can rather than a rebuild. Yet there is precious little evidence they were maintained cleaner in general, quite the reverse it sometimes appears in BR days.

You could possibly argue that Stewarts Lane showed a

slight preference for air-smoothed locos for the Golden Arrow regulars, which really were cleaned regularly, but they accepted rebuilds too. Indeed, the Lane's rebuilds were some of the most sparklingly clean locos in the country. And no-one could fault the

way the Britannias were turned out over many years.
It seems strange, looking back, that the original locos weren't generally cleaner in service than the rebuilds, as the A4s seemed noticeably cleaner than the A3s under BR.

[Postman Prat]

Hi Forester

The A4s at Kings Cross in the 50s and 60s were mainly allocated to specific crews, whereas the A3s were were more common user. Also the A4s were the flagship locos whilst the A3s were '2nd string'

The depots varied as well,

Gateshead and New England locos were generally liveried in 'filth'!!

[LCDR]

The rebuilt locomotives seemed initially to be allocated to the South Western section sheds, so the South Eastern retained a high proportion of original locomotives to the finish of steam in June 1961. Except that to counter protests from London commuters

a block of rebuilt light Pacifics were allocated to Ramsgate and Bricklayers Arms for the Cannon Street servives from 1957 onwards, to improve reliability. However only one Merchant Navy remained on the Eastern Section, 35015, after it was rebuilt, and joined

'unrebuilt' 35001, and 35028 at Stewarts Lane for boat train services, until 1959. By that time a lot more rebuilt 'light' Pacifics had become available and dominated the boat trains for the last two years. There was really little to choose between a rebuilt

light Pacific and a rebuilt Merchant Navy, they were both equally superb.

Until 1962 most sheds kept their locos clean, but after Beeching the heart went out of it, it became harder to recruit loco cleaners and the standards gradually deteriorated.

As a general rule South Eastern sheds kept their passenger locos very clean, and the goods locos got at least a wipe down with an oily rag. Steam had all but disappeared in Kent and SE London by the time the malaise of filth and neglect set in. That is not

to say some did end up unspeakably grimy but they tended to be the exception.

[forester]

Actually almost all of the Light Pacific rebuilds initially went to Bricklayers Arms. They spread out across the system later after SE electrification. They were kept much cleaner than the original Battle of Britains that dominated the boat train work

until then. If you want to see really dirty locos look for pictures of the Night Ferry. Because it ran mostly in the dark no-one seemed to care about the state the locos ran in - in contrast to the nice clean coaches.

[LCDR]

forester said:

Actually almost all of the Light Pacific rebuilds initially went to Bricklayers Arms. They spread out across the system later after SE electrification. They were kept much cleaner than the original Battle of Britains that dominated

the boat train work until then. If you want to see really dirty locos look for pictures of the Night Ferry. Because it ran mostly in the dark no-one seemed to care about the state the locos ran in - in contrast to the nice clean coaches.

Yes,

but apart from 'Rotterdam Lloyd' no rebuilt Merchant Navy class went to the Eastern Section.

As a very regular user of Charing Cross until 1972 and a regular watcher of steam trains in North Kent from 1951 to the end, I saw a lot of Eastern Section

classes and my impression was that all the passenger classes were kept reasonably clean right up to 1961, not just the rebuilt light Pacifics.

[forester]

They were very dirty by 1972.... ;o)

[LCDR]

forester said:

They were very dirty by 1972.... ;o)

TRUE - in fact so dirty they merged into the background and vanished altogether!!

1960 was about the last year you could guarantee a steam locomotive on the front.

The BRCW type 3 and BR Sulzer type 2 had pretty well taken over by the end of the year, and the DEMUs were dominating the Hastings services. The 'Chatham' route had already gone electric the previous year but freight was still very much in the hands of steam,

until the 'Cromptons' had appeared in sufficient numbers to replace them. Almost all the North Kent coast commuters were now 12ECBC stock so the sight of the rebuilds powering through London Bridge was now just a memory.

London Bridge Central side could

still delight with steam destined for the Oxted line, and off peak there were still cross London freights with Midland and Eastern steam locomotives on the front.

It had all pretty well gone (certainly on the Eastern side) by 1962. New intermediate

colour light signals had been installed in Elmstead Woods and Chislehurst tunnels that year and the 'powers that be' prohibited steam locomotives through them because steam might obscure aspects from the following train. Foreigners still turned up at Hither

Green on goods, but even here various type 1 and type 2 diesels were appearing in increasing numbers. The odd bits of loco hauling was either diesel or electric (BRCW type 3 or BR/EE 2500 hp Bo-Bo)including the Golden Arrow and Night Ferry that had another

ten years. The little Eddies were still a few years off.

The last steam I saw locally was the 'South Eastern Limited' hauled by an L1 31786 and a D1 31749, which passed my house on 11th June 1961.

[Ozwarrior]

Well I don't have to eat my hat or anything similar. I've been told there are several variants to it which might explain manufacturer reluctance. If so it's still a shame.

[LCDR]

There were indeed at least three versions, but that hasn't stopped the competition malking it in N, nor has it prevented the LMS Princess Coronation class or LNER A3 class appearing in a variety of variations, look back through the catalogues and you will

see. You settle on the common denominator and use that.

Ozwarrior said:

Well I don't have to eat my hat or anything similar. I've been told there are several variants to it which might explain manufacturer reluctance. If so it's still

a shame.

[Fazy]

But the MN is not the only class to be neglected by hornby the poor princess royal is also over looked. The model is base on the 46200 but is wrong in so many ways its untrue. 46201 was not the same even if they were the two prototypes. 46202 was obviously

the tourbomotive 46203 onwards were all the same apart from 46205 had different value gear which I think looked much better then that fitted to the rest of the class.

So hornby pull your finger out and that see the MN and princess all new for next

year

[LCDR]

Although an air smoothed Pacific would be nice, I really think the time has come for Hornby to look at the huge deficit in smaller engine types. (See other posts)

[forester]

With the advent of Hornby "Design Clever" and the backward step this usually entails in terms of loco detail, I have to say I no longer want them to produce a Clever Unrebuilt Merchant Navy.
I'll now be happy to wait until the competitor produces a

proper super-detail one in a blue box.

[walkingthedog]

The 'design clever' I've seen looks pretty impressive. Think you might be waiting a long long time forester

[LCDR]

Now I have my Golden Arrow kit batch 3 MN running my imperative for Hornby to make one has diminished.

I would prefer now a Maunsell U or U1 2-6-0, or L1 4-4-0 or his rebuilds of the D1 or E1. Or a Wainwright 'H' to go with the pull & push set.

That

said if they did make one (in blue) I'd buy it.

[Postman Prat]

It surely wouldn't take you long to convert a blue box N to a U? The LNER U1 might take a little longer!!!

[LCDR]

PP. Actually converting a N to a U1 is not as easy as it seems. It looks easy but like converting a N15 to a S15 there are subtle differences that make it tricky. So much so that I will eventually build my U & U1 using a SEF kit, rather than attempting

to do a conversion. After all the N chassis is no good for a U the axle spacing is wrong, and the driving wheels are different sizes. The boiler is set higher, and so its relationship to the cab is different and the boiler fittings are different too. So by

the time you throw away the bits that don't fit you are not left with much.

I'll ignore your remark about the LNER Worsborough banker.

[LCDR]

Oh yes the running plate is a different shape as well, as the U & U1 have splashers.

[Saviour]

forester said:

The Unrebuilt MN is one of the last 8P express locos still to be produced by any manufacturer. Time to fill that gap! 

I totally agree. And there are so many variations for those people who want to buy each

different one that Hornby would outsell many of their recent best-sellers!

[Graskie]

Welcome to the forum, our Saviour!

[walkingthedog]

Saviour said:

I totally agree. And there are so many variations for those people who want to buy each different one that Hornby would outsell many of their recent best-sellers!

Only if there are lots people who want lots

of MN's Saviour.

Welcome to the forum from me as well.