40% Smaller Power Bank from Hornby

[ColinB]

14 minutes ago, RB51 said:

I’m sorry @ColinB, but you cannot come on here and say something as obscure as “someone suggested they were special” and rewind your earlier comment about “we now know they were not”. If you do not fact check yourself and refrain from spurious comments all your posts will be held for moderation before entering the forum. R-

I didn't want to actually say who that person was, I am too polite to say who it is, just check all the posts, end of story. Please don't use threats that is not the idea of a forum.  

[LTSR_NSE]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

I didn't want to actually say who that person was, I am too polite to say who it is, just check all the posts…

If you are too polite to state publicly - there’s nothing preventing you from sending the mods a private message!

(A cynic could suggest that it sounds like you can’t produce any evidence & are simply trying to bluster!)

Also you might want to reword your suggestion… it sounds more than a little unreasonable to expect unpaid volunteers to go searching the forum for a mystery authored post that allegedly states the Hornby Power Bank includes special powers!

(A cynic could also suggest that it sounds like you are trying to offload the responsibility for finding potentially non-existing evidence onto the mods.  So that when they fail to locate it, you can blame their investigation rather than reality!)

[96RAF]

10 hours ago, ColinB said:

You sure about that 96RAF, the device has two connections, to control it from the decoder you would need three ( power out, power return and control).

Yes I am. Without publishing the schematic for both the PB and the decoder I cannot prove it to you, but simplistically the transistor is biased off preventing charging until the decoder switches it on enabling the charging. We have yet to have anyone prove that these 3rd party SAs exhibit the charging delay.

[ColinB]

7 hours ago, LTSR_NSE said:

If you are too polite to state publicly - there’s nothing preventing you from sending the mods a private message!

(A cynic could suggest that it sounds like you can’t produce any evidence & are simply trying to bluster!)

Also you might want to reword your suggestion… it sounds more than a little unreasonable to expect unpaid volunteers to go searching the forum for a mystery authored post that allegedly states the Hornby Power Bank includes special powers!

(A cynic could also suggest that it sounds like you are trying to offload the responsibility for finding potentially non-existing evidence onto the mods.  So that when they fail to locate it, you can blame their investigation rather than reality!)

I think we ought to forget this, why do I want to send the individual a personal message? I don't why you get so upset, it is called discussion. As to the Powerbank it works as do other varieties. Lets move on. As to the circuit when I have time I will take one apart and work out the circuit diagram.

Edited May 30 by ColinB

[96RAF]

No doubt I am the phantom as I have the schematics and I have commented many times in the past on this topic - and no thanks I have no desire to enter into a PM messaging war.

Maybe it is time to lock this discussion as it is simply going round in circles - like many before it.

 

[Kennedy1234]

On 29/05/2024 at 00:08, ColinB said:

I took my LaisDCC shrink wrap off, I was trying to fit it into a smaller space, but I did get to study the components and circuit. Surprisingly the LaisDCC has four capacitors in series so I assume these are the devices that Hornby are having so much difficulty getting. The rest was a couple of transitors (one being used as a diode) a zenor and a resistor. The running time is dependant on the motor impedance.

HI ColinB any chance you could help with the laisdcc power packs and what might be causing an issue with 3 I have, they were working but have stopped now and I suspect a component failure, either in the charging or discharging circuit but I'm not technically competent enough to fault find,, I was hoping someone on here might be able to assist please?

[ColinB]

5 minutes ago, Kevin-1258588 said:

HI ColinB any chance you could help with the laisdcc power packs and what might be causing an issue with 3 I have, they were working but have stopped now and I suspect a component failure, either in the charging or discharging circuit but I'm not technically competent enough to fault find,, I was hoping someone on here might be able to assist please?

Which ones have you got? If they are the very small ones the electronics is soldered directly onto the top of the "stay alive" components. I did have two from new where the wires fell off inside the shrink wrap. Trouble is the "stay alives" are in series so if one fails, they all fail. I must admit mine are all working and I have had no issues but then I don't run those locos very often.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Kevin-1258588 - if they’ve failed contact the seller for a replacement/refund.  Unless you are really comfortable/confident with electronic components - doing anything like removing shrink wrap is likely to invalidate warranty.

[96RAF]

Given it is a Liais item and by historical evidence likely to be a knock off, then its up to your conscience whether you bin it or pursue a replacement from the purchase retailer.

[Rallymatt]

3 have failed, all within a short period or over a long time? Perhaps they really are not compatible with the HM 7000 decoders after all. I have one in a TT:120 08 but working with a Zimo decoder, all from Digitrains, it’s been faultless but it is compatible in that application. 

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, LTSR_NSE said:

@Kevin-1258588 - if they’ve failed contact the seller for a replacement/refund.  Unless you are really comfortable/confident with electronic components - doing anything like removing shrink wrap is likely to invalidate warranty.

Actually it is very difficult to repair them anyway the components are so small. I did replace some components on a LokSound decoder that was broken but even then it was difficult. The original post didn't say which type they were (there are about 5), so it is difficult to know. Mine are all attached to Zimo decoders.

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, 96RAF said:

Given it is a Liais item and by historical evidence likely to be a knock off, then its up to your conscience whether you bin it or pursue a replacement from the purchase retailer.

As I keep saying the LaisDCC "Stay Alives" are supposedly quite good and I doubt they are a knock off, because no other company makes them. The circuit is a basic power supply circuit, the one I learnt in my first year degree, so nothing special, they probably do it at GCSE now. As I said in my post they do have a habit of the wires falling off, because looking at the soldering they are done by hand, which given the size of the components is quite a feat. It is hard to tell why they are failing, perhaps a bad batch of capacitor (stay alives). From the one I took the wrap off it contains a 2N222a for the voltage regulation and I would say the same for the diode (the markings are missing on that transistor). We used to use them in high current application so I doubt that is an issue. I also doubt it is the HM7000 blowing them up. 

[Kennedy1234]

Hi just to clarify I wasn't try to suggest the Lais Stay alives were faulty, and I would have to agree the LaisDCC stay alives are good and preform exceptionally well when ive tested them. The ones I have have had problems with seem to be related to an issue connecting them up I'm beginning to I think older decoders that don't support Stay Alives and thus I've caused accidently the issue with them by connecting them initially to older decoder types, this is the 3rd time if tried them in different locos and decoders, they worked the first time perfectly well (I took them out of a couple of older locos to fit to the new decoders as they didn't work in the older decoder I had just put them in and potentially that's when they stopped either because I soldered them incorrectly or the older decoder did something to them so that's when they stopped working, my questions were around what could be wrong and more along the lines of trying to fix them after I had caused them to fail. I'm beginning to agree though with the other comments, the components are so small it's probably not worth the time or heartache to try and fix them and I will probably just end up ordering dome more to replace them (making sure to stay away from my older decoders this time - I'm replacing most with HM7000 as and when i can anyway)

[96RAF]

Some decoders are much easier to connect a stay alive to than others, for instance the older TTS decoders have fairly large solder pads in an accessible position, so providing you get the SA wires the correct way round they are a doddle to add to. Those decoders where you have to connect into the bridge rectifier on the pcb are more tricky and need accurate soldering skills. As you and Colin say the on-board components are getting so small diy fettling is becoming less possible.

[Rallymatt]

A gentle reminder this thread was about the announcement from Hornby that they are planning a 40% smaller Power Bank for HM 7000 decoders. I feel we have strayed well away from that. For newcomers this can all seem quite overwhelming and unnecessarily complicated

[Britannia Builder]

To get back to the original topic, it will be interesting to see if the new PB from Hornby uses 4 supercapacitors rather than 3, to give a higher voltage. The 3 in the current PB only give about 8 volts, 4 albeit smaller ones should give over 10. The lower voltage causes the LED carriage lights in my DMU, wired to Aux 1, to flicker on points, and my Bachmann 3MT Tank when running at fairly high speed sometimes slows right down after passing over points. I don't really understand the latter problem because the power interruption is only momentary, but it seems to send the decoder into a deceleration which lasts for 20-30 cm or so before it resumes normal speed.

I think a higher voltage PB with smaller components and much less capacity would be an improvement.

Regards, John

Edited June 1 by Britannia Builder
Aux 1, not 3

[Rallymatt]

I’m sure the availability of components for the initial PB dictated much of its spec. If there was a choice, I’d vote in a favour of the much smaller size and sacrifice a lot of the life, the most practical application of PB is always in the smallest locos where space is always at a premium. 
Great to see Hornby haven’t just said we have a PB, that will do. I really feel with HM DCC there is a real spirit of development and improvement. 😁

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Britannia Builder said:

To get back to the original topic, it will be interesting to see if the new PB from Hornby uses 4 supercapacitors rather than 3, to give a higher voltage. The 3 in the current PB only give about 8 volts, 4 albeit smaller ones should give over 10. The lower voltage causes the LED carriage lights in my DMU, wired to Aux 1, to flicker on points, and my Bachmann 3MT Tank when running at fairly high speed sometimes slows right down after passing over points. I don't really understand the latter problem because the power interruption is only momentary, but it seems to send the decoder into a deceleration which lasts for 20-30 cm or so before it resumes normal speed.

I think a higher voltage PB with smaller components and much less capacity would be an improvement.

Regards, John

Thank you for that information, that explains an awful lot. I have been wondering how Hornby could get away with 3 "Stay Alives" rated at between 2.5 to 2.7 volts (dependant on which specification you read) when the normal running voltage is in excess of 12 volts. The 3 "Stay Alives" unless you want to blow them up means you can safety only reach a maximum of 9 volts (dependant on which spec you read). LaisDCC uses 4 and I think the AE one does as well, so perhaps the AE one is a better option if you don't want to solder. I must admit I have never noticed the deceleration but then I am more worried about slow speed running over points so I would never have noticed.

I wondered the same about the smaller components and less time especially after this morning trying desperately to fit the smallest LaisDCC "Stay Alive" into a 6 wheeled Pecket (it doesn't fit). Trouble is to get capacitors that work at 16 volts with a decent large value, they get rather large. Train O Matic have the best idea, use one low voltage "Stay Alive" and use an electronic voltage multiplier to get the right voltage. Trouble is that is a bit more expensive option. Thinking about it I wonder if it may be worth buying a Train O Matic one and changing the capacitor to a smaller value, or using a bank of SMD tantalums.

[96RAF]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

use one low voltage "Stay Alive" and use an electronic voltage multiplier to get the right voltage

As I said earlier...

The new Hornby design will be made smaller probably by using less capacitors which will likely use step-up tech to get the output voltage. 

[BritInVanCA]

Although the smaller Hornby stay alive would be nice I'm thinking it still won't be a solution for the TT120 08. That in combination with the long lead times (I understand why so this is not a criticism) for the HM7000 6 pin decoder I think I'll end up going traditional DCC with the dongle when my era 5 08 shows up. I get the impression the DCC restart delay because of "power issues" will be less with traditional DCC as well. I don't think I can justify spending near as much as the loco cost on a Zimo sound decoder! I like my diesel silent anyway.

I think the J50 has more space so hopefully I can get a Hornby HM7000/power bank solution for that. Probably not until 2025 though

[Fishmanoz]

Given TWW has already squeezed the existing PB into the TT:120 08, albeit with extensive modification, fitting the 40% smaller version should be no problem in the cab.