Rallymatt Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Warning, some viewers and company executives may find the following presentation distressing! It’s 52 mins long too but covers most of the good stuff 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Allen Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 These 1st Generation locos need sorting out, they need retro fitting to bring them to the same or close to same standard as the current Princess Coronation class. My Flying Scotsman loco feels like Triggers broom, its has 2 new motors (1st kept shorting the track, 2nd just buzzed), new valve gear, new pickups (running slow), new tender (HM7000 burned out, literally and melted the socket) and just returned back today after having new casing (running slow after 2nd motor fitted). Mallard has had 2 new motors and pickups, Blink Bonny has had new valve gear, motor and front wheels realigned due to constant derailing. Night Hawk arrived Tuesday and keeps intermittently stalling on points. Called CS this morning for advice and they immediately pulled it back in for QC to take a look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Excellent and very informative video. Strangely I've defaulted to most of the little 'tips'n'tricks' you mentioned ... great minds or something! Al. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 Al, I think after a while messing about with model railways and things in general, we all pick up knowledge and end up in virtually the same place. It’s surprising how many of us also spot the same nonsense too! 🤣 @Tim Allen, I replied on YouTube but asking here too, what’s your slow FS look like compared to SK before I swapped the new motor out? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Allen Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Just now, Rallymatt said: Al, I think after a while messing about with model railways and things in general, we all pick up knowledge and end up in virtually the same place. It’s surprising how many of us also spot the same nonsense too! 🤣 @Tim Allen, I replied on YouTube but asking here too, what’s your slow FS look like compared to SK before I swapped the new motor out? Do you mean speed wise? If I ran it with just the loco at 100% power Blink Bonny or Mallard could run at 55-60% with a rake of 5-6 coaches to keep up with it on parallel straight tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 It’s sounding like a similar issue with to this one. You can use a scale speed calculator to get a better idea of relevant speeds , stony smith on Google brings up a good one to use. All model trains tend to run too fast, the TT Pacifics were doing 140mph without any trimming, so that does equate to what you feel with yours. I purposely trim the top speed back to the speed the loco would do in service so my Pacifics at CV 195 are at 96-100mph. With SK and ‘new motor’ at standard 255 value it couldn’t exceed 70mph and ran rough trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Allen Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 35 minutes ago, Rallymatt said: It’s sounding like a similar issue with to this one. You can use a scale speed calculator to get a better idea of relevant speeds , stony smith on Google brings up a good one to use. All model trains tend to run too fast, the TT Pacifics were doing 140mph without any trimming, so that does equate to what you feel with yours. I purposely trim the top speed back to the speed the loco would do in service so my Pacifics at CV 195 are at 96-100mph. With SK and ‘new motor’ at standard 255 value it couldn’t exceed 70mph and ran rough trying. Using the length of my platform as reference at 990mm and running as just the loco. Both Blink Bonny and Scotsman were doing 90ish MPH at 65% power, at 100% power Blink Bonny calculated at 178MPH! Silver King at 80% was hitting 90MPH - This is a newish loco only a few weeks old. Interested to see what the others are doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 (edited) The longest run makes things easiest and more accurate. Try a full power run. I set my locos so that at full power on throttle they are the speed that was realistic. That should save the motor (?!!) from undue stress. You can set the V High CV (CV5) accordingly. If an A1 had clocked 178mph I think Gresley would have given birth to Ducks let alone kept them! 🤣 Edited July 25 by Rallymatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Allen Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Rallymatt said: The longest run makes things easiest and more accurate. Try a full power run. I set my locos so that at full power on throttle they are the speed that was realistic. That should save the motor (?!!) from undue stress 😁 Funny enough that's what I've just finished doing 🙂 I changed the VHigh CV to slow them down. Dropped the A1's to I think 150 so that they were doing around 110 at max, the A4's were around 180. The Class 50's were about right at max speed hitting 110mph and the HST we're faster than HS2 so dropped them to 180. I've never really had the nerve to put them at full speed and generally ran them 60-80% depending on the loco. Edited July 25 by Tim Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen-1260829 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 @Rallymatt this video was essential viewing. It is sad that the motors chosen by Hornby seem such a poor choice / selection. I have only been able to run in my A4 William Whitelaw, HST and the class 50. so they have not had any operating time put on them at all. So all these motor problems still await me. I hope that by the time i do get to operating stage, that Hornby have aquired a much better motor to replace the currently fiited version. There may even be a thriving motor replacement industry in place. 🙂 Thank you for taking the time to make the video and explain what has been done. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukpetey Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 I have run in my two locos but not driven them any further as I put the temporary track I’d assembled away, and await delivery of my base board. The scary thing is, both already have an hour of run time on the clock just from running in. If as Rallymatt suggests, I can expect 35 hours of run time in total, that’s really quite shocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Out of interest Matt I have a few motors in locos without any code stamped on the casing. I cannot say if the models were new or second hand to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 Failures seem to occur either very soon, in a couple of hours or around the 30-35 hour mark although there will always be exceptions. My locos do get stop start and reverse work which is a known issue for this type of motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 I hope the holiday is good Garry! I haven’t seen a Hornby loco without that code stamped on the motor body (3pole version) As I have found, the N12 motors on sale seem to be quite good so if they have had a motor swap that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Yes, all going well Matt, they are experiencing a heatwave here so been 39/40 at times. When we get back in about a weeks time I will try and locate one, but, could be like a needle in a haystack with my locos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gc4946 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 It's shocking these motors have an approximate 35 hour running limit! I haven't run my Gresley pacifics or 08 much, no more than two hours per Gresley loco, class 08 less. I'm guessing Hornby sources off the shelf motors piggybacking off electronics suppliers to keep costs down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuLarge Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 @Rallymatt I can forsee a run until they die video in your future... Wheels spinning on a rolling road with a clock timer... Tag it with ASMR and you will get a gazillion views 😜 Seriously though Thank You for the insight, wisdom, tips & tricks 👍🏼 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 (edited) All manufacturers source ‘off the shelf’ motors these days. The ‘can motors’ used in many models will also be used in printers, window blinds, minor automotive accessories etc. They are made and sold in the 100’s of millions, model locomotives are sold in 1000s. Sorry to be the one who points out reality but at least I bring you options and with options we can move forwards 😁 Stu, now that’s an idea! Stand aside Mr Beast…or maybe not 🤣 Edited July 25 by Rallymatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterM67 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Thanks Matt. Sadly a video that I suspect many of us will need to refer to in the future . I have 11 of these little 3 pole time bombs just waiting to cause me grief at some point in the future. Fortunately I haven't had a problem yet but then my fleet spends most of it's time boxed up at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 This topic has my attention, because I suspect that a similar motor is in the OO LMR models and likely to be in Locomotion. The big concern has been regarding the precious metal fingers, which most apparently have a short life. So off I went, examining motors with an N20 frame size. The first criteria I selected for was voltage. Plenty at 3 and 6 vdc, some at 12vdc. None, absolutely none at 14 vdc. Now whilst I do not think 12 vs 14 volts is terribly significant, it is an over voltage of 18%. Is this arcing at the fingers? Likely not. The second criteria I selected for was carbon brushes. I found some in lower voltage ratings, but I could not find them in the 12vdc category. And then it hit me. I watched @Rallymatttake the precious metal brushes off of one motor, to install on another motor. Why couldn't a carbon brush be transplanted? The voltage limitation will be due to the windings, not the brushes. So transplanting the brushes will be fine on an existing 12vdc armature. Buy the wrong voltage N20 motor with carbon brushes and strip it for those brushes. It even has the identical bend tabs, to hold the plastic plate in place! Its just a thought. Bee 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 24 minutes ago, What About The Bee said: Buy the wrong voltage N20 motor with carbon brushes and strip it for those brushes. Great idea, is there any way of knowing which low voltage motors have the carbon brushes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 Hi Silver Fox I just asked Google for an N20 motor with carbon brushes. Quite a few popped up, some with images. Ebay has them too. Not hard to find Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 15 minutes ago, What About The Bee said: Hi Silver Fox I just asked Google for an N20 motor with carbon brushes. Quite a few popped up, some with images. Ebay has them too. Not hard to find Bee Thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 1 hour ago, What About The Bee said: Why couldn't a carbon brush be transplanted? Buy the wrong voltage N20 motor with carbon brushes and strip it for those brushes. Excellent plan, to that end I have ordered 10 from an eBay seller in China I have used before, to have on stand by for when mine reach EOL ! At under £12 for 10 delivered, its not a lot to risk. Another thought when @Rallymatt mentions they dont like stop start and reverse: maybe DCC is harder on these motors too, as its always max volts but delivered in millisecond on/off bursts as I understand it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBDoug Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) Even though some sellers say carbon brushes on AliExpress they aren’t. I have some carbon brushes motors rated to 15v but the shafts are too short. They are designed for a gearbox bolted on the end. I have transplanted the carbon brushes into Hornby motor and it works fine. I might run 2 side by side none stop to see how long they last and how much wear on the carbon brushes. But not easy to test stop starts over time and running non stop I expect temperatures a bit different to usual usage Edited July 26 by DJBDoug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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