Rallymatt Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 (edited) All good work guys and excellent find @What About The Bee👍 The transplant of carbon brushes is a great idea and it’s so far worked like a treat on my WW A4 with the fingers. How many times the casing can be opened would be the limiting factor very long term but I shall add these on the roster of experiments. I seem to remember Gresley had this issue too 🤣 Edited July 26 by Rallymatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 The same supplier I used for the N20 motors also has the carbon brush ones listed for the lower voltages, I have ordered up some to strip for the end caps and carbon brush assembly. As Bee says, the windings dictate the voltages so the brushes shouldn’t make a difference, they may run differently, more noise increase in drag etc but a back to back test should give us some results. Just to remind people that although DCC will mean around 14.8v track power, that’s not what the motor sees, the decoder always converts the supply to 12v DC. If you like to watch destruction testing, watch tests of over voltage supply to a range of electric motors, they are surprisingly hardy although ultimately they fail. The spindle speeds are very impressive.. more entertaining than carpet trains on YouTube 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Allen Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 19 hours ago, Rallymatt said: If an A1 had clocked 178mph I think Gresley would have given birth to Ducks let alone kept them! 🤣 If Gresley could have run the A1 at 178MPH we would still be on steam and the government wouldn't have needed to waste billions on APT & HS2 with bad project management. I have now got all my steam loco's running at realistic track speeds (70-85MPH) at 80% with coaches. Thank you for pointing this out and the motors, perhaps these should be calibrated as part of the motor fitting at the factory. I used to run at 60-70% power but even that was too fast, perhaps damaged could have been avoided if I'd done this from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) Isn't that what happened to Blue Peter when it slipped with the wheels going at mad speed? In the case of your model that looks to be more to do with badly fitted or bent rods and linkage catching on something, speed shouldn't have caused that. Did the piston pull out of the cylinder? Edited July 26 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 6 hours ago, Rallymatt said: How many times the casing can be opened would be the limiting factor very long term but I shall add these on the roster of experiments. It is the windings that matter. Hang on to the motors you strip the brushes from, to use the casing as replacement as well. I was hopeful you would take the experiment on. Very much looking forward to seeing it. Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 I always keep bits and pieces like this, amazing how useful they become. The carbon brush motors are due mid August. Some additional info I have picked up via the video release (I love it when the fixers and positive people get together!) these motors are not ideal for much loading, one source suggesting 6 coaches and the brushes start to arc and motor heats up rapidly accelerating the wear on the precious metal brushes. I can’t I have noticed a lot of heat and certainly no marking inside of the bodies. Garry @Silver Fox 17 runs some impressive train lengths and hasn’t reported any motor failures, although he has a large engine shed so probably doesn’t run each one that much 😁 Had some interesting pointers from people in the RC world who are very familiar with these type of motors, the ones Hornby use are judged to be the bottom of the table 😳 but there are other sources so this has been a very positive exercise so far. Only one slightly whiney contribution, but I see there are two types of people, in an emergency there are those who get on with sorting things out and pull together and then there are those that run around looking for a camera and someone to blame. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 1 hour ago, ntpntpntp said: Isn't that what happened to Blue Peter when it slipped with the wheels going at mad speed That was on Durham viaduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 (edited) @BritInVanCA no problem at all on repost, and for the bashers, last paragraph in previous post works well 😁 We might have a choice of end cap swaps and there could be a top end N20 size motor available. This is all about options and solutions that work for people. I think this will run for a while and develop. There could have been a repeat in video, I’m not going to be troubling Speilberg anytime soon 🤣 Edited July 26 by Rallymatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Rallymatt said: Garry @Silver Fox 17 runs some impressive train lengths and hasn’t reported any motor failures, although he has a large engine shed so probably doesn’t run each one that much That is correct Matt. When they run I would take a guess of about 30 minutes or slightly longer each session. I should not really have more than 6 coaches due to fiddle yard lengths but at the moment anything upto 12/13 is no issue at all, the locos run as if nothing is behind them. I can say as an experiment last year I did test a Blink Bonny to see what she was capable off and stopped at 19 coaches. She ran well, no slipping and I only used 50% on the H&M Flyer controller. Edited July 26 by Silver Fox 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 I have some kit on the way to do some temperature measurements on motors in locos with various loads and we can see what is actually happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_watts1 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 I probably killed my Duchess by overloading it with 6 draggy LMS coaches, but hopefully she'll be back from Hornby Towers on Mon/Tuesday. I need to chase them for postage still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) 11 minutes ago, david_watts1 said: I probably killed my Duchess by overloading it with 6 draggy LMS coaches, but hopefully she'll be back from Hornby Towers on Mon/Tuesday. I need to chase them for postage still. Have you told them about the coaches as I think they are under the impression there is no problem. One chap has sent his coaches back after saying there was an issue. They did ask me for mine but I told them I had sorted them all out myself with the Dremel. Edited July 26 by Silver Fox 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 No you didn’t Dave, I am not entirely convinced by the load argument. If you put your bank details on the return letter, they process the refund in batches about once a month, always been very good in my experience. This must cost Hornby a fortune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_watts1 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) @RallymattI did put my bank details on the returns notice, they got the loco Wed 17th, so I will give them a while longer then. Any one putting out a replacement motor with 5 pole, skew wound, carbon brushes and worm attached would make a fortune, both for the A1/3 and 4's and the Duchesses. @Silver Fox 17They must know about the LMS coaches and the tankers etc with the ammount sold, but like all companies they will never admit fault unless the have to. I'll just run my coaches in a few at a time, it's too much hassle to send them back. Edited July 26 by david_watts1 Addition of detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 The duchess and LNER Pacifics have a completely different motor, the issues with Duchess are around the valve gear getting bound up, more than likely fingers in wrong place when packing! it is actually quite a simple process to sort in most cases. A good 3 pole motor is perfectly suitable and better than a mediocre 5pole skew wound. It’s important not to get sidelined by techno babble as so happens in many hobbies, quality is king and that usually costs a bit more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 1 hour ago, Rallymatt said: A good 3 pole motor is perfectly suitable and better than a mediocre 5pole skew wound Exactly, apart from the wipers instead of brushes these 3 pole motors fitted to the A1/3/4 and 08 is a super little item. Very quiet, lovely smooth control on dc and dcc and very strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBerriff Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 (edited) A snip at $630, this is what we need: https://www.portescap.com/en/products/brushless-dc-motors/08ecp20-ultra-ec-slotless-brushless-dc-motor Unfortunately you need space for the control electronics too, and the Portescap device is, relatively speaking, huge. One day perhaps? Seriously though, I would willingly pay more for a long-life motor Edited July 27 by dBerriff spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 12 Author Share Posted August 12 Today the experiment to swap an OE motor to Carbon Brushes happened. It’s more involved than just swapping the end cap with the BE brushes in but it’s doable. Garry @Silver Fox 17 has done it on an A4, I have tried a few different techniques and come up with what I think is a pretty painless method that works. I also have some tell tale temp strips in the loco to see just how hot these get under load. I personally don’t think it’s an issue. So far the carbon brush swap is performing well, smooth and quiet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 (edited) Excellent Matt, really good demonstration and I have to say I also found fitting the brushes over the commutator about the hardest part. Probably due to the very limited gap to get in to. Your running result seems to be similar to mine so we must both be doing something right. I never thought to look at my commutator for signs of grooves but listening to you and your observations I am wondering if it is best to replace the end cap before problems start? One thing that is puzzling me though is the tape on the motor, on yours it is on top, on mine it was below. Although it is only thin, 0.25mm if that? then it could make a difference on the gear meshing could it not? Looking forward to the temperature test. Edited August 12 by Silver Fox 17 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 Absolutely Garry, the foam tape will have some effect on gearmesh, so far it’s not showing a negative effect on running. I’m pretty sure it’s on top of the motor casings on my 3 Gresley Pacifics or at least was until I heat affected one so it’s now got 3m Helio Tape on 😁 There should be enough backlash in the gears to mean the motors can be rigidly mounted. I have noticed from factory there is more freeplay than I would have expected. The carbon brush endcap has taken that away completely and so far is running much more smoothly than the OE set up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47606 Odin Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 What I took from this video is that the previous motor swap you did didn’t have carbon brushes in the new motor, which is what I thought you were doing. I have 3 in the post on their way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 (edited) @47606 Odin The previous video was a straight swap of a £1.60 eBay motor into Silver King that had just returned from Hornby having had a brand new OE motor fitted but ran very badly. That swap required moving the worm gear from the OE motor and fitting onto the eBay motor. Those motors all had BE brushes, the precious metal fingers that fail. I also shows how you can simply take the endcap from a new ebay motor and replace the failed brushes with like for like. This video shows taking an end cap with carbon brushes from a 6v N20 single shaft motor from eBay and upgrading the Hornby OE motor to carbon brushes. It’s more involved as there is a blanking plate on the donor endcap that needs removing and the position of the carbon brushes makes refitting the endcap a little harder but with the right technique these swap can be done. Due to the limited memory on my phone the section showing how to remove the bearing and blanking plate from the donor endcap seems to have not published correctly, I’ll do a short video showing just how to remove the blanking plate and re-fit the bearing and put that up later today 👍 Edited August 13 by Rallymatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriMiNaL Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 will you be showing the coreless moter and how it performs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 That’s the plan. I have a couple of coreless options, I already have some of the MicroMotors version and another option is under development. At the moment the motors in the 3 Gresley Pacifics I have are all running various fixes, endcap with BE Brushes swap from eBay motor, complete EBay motor swap again BE brushes and now the end cap with carbon brushes swap. I want to see how effective and durable these fixes are long term so will leave them to run until they don’t. I also have a couple of 08 shunters and although both run perfectly at the moment I can see one of those being the next to need attention, especially as all they do is stop start and lots of reverse motor action. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47606 Odin Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 2 hours ago, Rallymatt said: @47606 Odin The previous video was a straight swap of a £1.60 eBay motor into Silver King that had just returned from Hornby having had a brand new OE motor fitted but ran very badly. That swap required moving the worm gear from the OE motor and fitting onto the eBay motor. Those motors all had BE brushes, the precious metal fingers that fail. I also shows how you can simply take the endcap from a new ebay motor and replace the failed brushes with like for like. This video shows taking an end cap with carbon brushes from a 6v N20 single shaft motor from eBay and upgrading the Hornby OE motor to carbon brushes. It’s more involved as there is a blanking plate on the donor endcap that needs removing and the position of the carbon brushes makes refitting the endcap a little harder but with the right technique these swap can be done. Due to the limited memory on my phone the section showing how to remove the bearing and blanking plate from the donor endcap seems to have not published correctly, I’ll do a short video showing just how to remove the blanking plate and re-fit the bearing and put that up later today 👍 I thought you were replacing the motor previously to a carbon brushed one as that had been discussed. Never mind, I’ll have to find the type with the carbon brushes. Can you identify the difference from the outside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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