Rallymatt Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 (edited) The latest motor option for the Gresley Pacifics has been announced from BBD-Ltd whom many of you will know as Richard from This Way Works. A few options were tested and currently I have the prototype motor installed in William Whitelaw, it’s steadily clocking up the hours and no issues. There will be a video on the original installation and the test runs and a bit of running data. The motors are a BE type coreless motor, with a nylon work gear already attached and two spacer plates to align the motor in an unmodified chassis. No glueing or grinding. The motor is closer to the physical size of the OE N20. That helps with heat control. The gearing is different to the OE specification and the top speed is at a scale speed rather than the TGV like standard motor. I have run it for hours at a time with a full 10 coach set. My coaches are heavier than standard due to the battery illumination and going to my 12 stretched the KK system too much and they lock up. Hauling power is at least as equal to the OE motor. Critically it’s been tested in reverse for over an hour, and stop start work, reversing through the reverse loop, forwards back into station, reverse again etc. Normally none of my locos do more than 15 mins of so running at a time, this has had up to 90 mins non stop loaded up. This was to check durability and critically heat. I have run telltale heat strips above the motor clip and they are within the same range as OE. While BE brushes are not ideal in an iron cored motor for stop/start/reverse, it’s more to do with the way a cored motor works. Plus as we can buy these motors so cheaply, it’s unlikely they are at the best quality possible as 30-35 hours indicates. In the coreless motor, the windings are in a skew wound ‘basket’ arrangement around the permanent magnet. Hence no iron core. They are more efficient and for using BE brushes one huge advantage, they experience much less electro-erosion that kills the pad on the metal wiper. Because the applications are typically high end precision devices and the motors are more expensive to make, the quality of all the components is noticeably higher. On WW, it’s noticeably smoother in operation. I am pretty confident that this a is longer term solution. Edited September 4 by Rallymatt Typo 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 (edited) Class 50 uprated Cardan shafts Closer inspection of the drivetrain particularly at the bogie end highlights the issue with the OE shafts. It won’t happen all the time and will be more prone on running tighter radius curves. The OE shaft is thin, perfectly durable. On the cup that receives drive from the shaft it features a deep collar to locate the shaft so it doesn’t pop out. There are two slots to locate the drive spigots. In particular angles the shaft can ‘catch’ these slots, this can mean noisy running in extremes of articulation. It can also lead to the shaft jamming sufficiently that it flexes and pops out. Using a shaft with a waisted section (larger diameter at one end) prevents the shaft being able to lodge in the slots and flex. Edited September 4 by Rallymatt Typo 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge1965 Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 So i have been running the upgraded drive shafts from Richard @ThisWayWorks . My blue 50 would pop a drive shaft on radius 2/3/4 curves, i got used to adding them back in. Then i spoke to Richard and he had a solution. The drive shafts are available here : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335560469134?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D777008%26algo%3DPERSONAL.TOPIC%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D272232%26meid%3D0a766700bb7b4efb9efe30cd025f293e%26pid%3D101949%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26itm%3D335560469134%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4375194%26algv%3DRecentlyViewedItemsV2WithMLRV6RankerPricelessTop30Features&_trksid=p4375194.c101949.m162918&_trkparms=parentrq%3Abc7da4331910a54e311e5fd7ffffe696|pageci%3Aff6c6830-6aa4-11ef-9ee8-6eecd6a3b2fc|iid%3A1|vlpname%3Avlp_homepage As are the lights and motors he does. With some testing and running i have done, i have noticed that even with the body removed, the loco runs quieter and not a single drive shaft popping out. So very happy with the upgrade. Just waiting for Richard to fix the same issue for the HSTS's... Will keep running and report back. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 Looks like a double ended motor, so an opportunity to add a flywheel if desired. In the video on ebay there appears to be space to accommodate one. I have a coreless 1015D motor and some spare Kato flywheels so I might make my own adapter and have a go in a few weeks time (after my N gauge show commitments 🙂 ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 It will be interesting to see how adding a flywheel changes things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skelton Junction Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 I’ve been particularly unlucky with the drive shaft issue and am interested and willing to try this fix. The several times I’ve attempted it have all resulted in Hornby HQ doing it ultimately. It may prove prudent to send them to @ThisWayWorks for his upgrade unless there’s a fool (me) proof diy way that doesn’t involve lifting the motor out marginally for easier access and fitment, locating the thicker shafts without tweezers (shaft usually snaps out whilst I’m holding it) and generally not messing things up. Have done a YT search for a tutorial aimed at amateurs without success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge1965 Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 27 minutes ago, Skelton Junction said: I’ve been particularly unlucky with the drive shaft issue and am interested and willing to try this fix. The several times I’ve attempted it have all resulted in Hornby HQ doing it ultimately. It may prove prudent to send them to @ThisWayWorks for his upgrade unless there’s a fool (me) proof diy way that doesn’t involve lifting the motor out marginally for easier access and fitment, locating the thicker shafts without tweezers (shaft usually snaps out whilst I’m holding it) and generally not messing things up. Have done a YT search for a tutorial aimed at amateurs without success. @Rallymatt is borrowing a class 50 and will be doing his usual , how to video on the drive shafts. Not sure when, but it will be soon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 I've succumbed and bought a 50 - arriving this afternoon. Looking forward to poking around and seeing the problem for myself 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47606 Odin Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 My 50 hasn’t spat a shaft out on R2 curves yet…..but occasionally on starting it clicks and wobbles to match the click but generally suddenly stops and it runs smoothly again. I am assuming this to be the shafts. i was also thinking the pins on the shaft should be 90° out so there’s no time when both ends of the shaft are in line when the bogie is in maximum twist with the slots in the widest point of rotation 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBerriff Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 This is a great service that you are providing and I am tempted to order a motor for Blink Bonny to keep as a spare. I hope the Hornby designers, decent chaps that they are, are taking note. Thank you. 👍❤️😎 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 In this application the spigots at 90 deg to each other (opp ends) won’t really contribute anything. When the 50 arrives plan is to disassemble more than needed for the fix to show what is happening. This could be a very easy fix in manufacturing. I know Hornby have taken on board quite a few of the fixes that have come from ‘real world operation’ They have implemented some of them already. They are reactive to issues although the way production occurs it’s not always possible to make changes until a new batch is being made and of course while we can develop and test and come to a conclusion, Hornby need to do it all over again for themselves if they agree. Great part of the hobby and this forum is the teamwork that goes on to get us there 😁 I can only say a big thank you to Richard @ThisWayWorks for his willingness to tinker, source/make components and @Dodge1965 for being a willing Guinea pig with models and assisting with testing etc. Also to William Whitelaw for having his wheels constantly on the move for the the last few weeks! Proves the rest of Hornby’ work is top notch. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 51 minutes ago, ntpntpntp said: I've succumbed and bought a 50 - arriving this afternoon. Looking forward to poking around and seeing the problem for myself 🙂 That has to be the best excuse to buy loco I have heard in a while 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 I imagine the original cardan shafts are moulded nylon (or similar) which allows them to be flexible and not snap (yet). So, are these thicker ones made similar or 3D printed as so far all the 3D printed items I have had have been quite brittle and in my view would snap trying to fit them or with the pressure put on them. I know there are lots of different materials used in 3D printing but my knowledge on the subject is nil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Silver Fox 17 said: all the 3D printed items I have had have been quite brittle When I 3D print this sort of thing I use specific "tough but flexible" resin rather than the standard stuff, and it is indeed exactly that - not so brittle and can take being bent without breaking. It's probably my "go-to" resin for making spare parts (buffers, shafts, steps, motor adapters etc.) I use a rather nice white resin for finest detail in prints of bodyshells etc. Ancient Roco N gauge loco having a motor transplant from can to skew-wound open frame 🙂 Edited September 4 by ntpntpntp 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 These shafts are not 3D printed although with right resin as @ntpntpntp says they can make completely reliable shafts for model locos. These ones are from ABS Plastic. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 1 hour ago, Rallymatt said: [bought a 50 to poke around!] That has to be the best excuse to buy loco I have heard in a while 🤣 Well it was £30 cheaper than Hornby's asking price and £15 cheaper than most dealers so thought I might as well 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 Fitting and testing video is now live 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 (edited) Certainly a lot easier to fit than swapping an end cap although a bit more, actually lot more, expensive. Hopefully my motor will be here soon for me to test as well. Edited September 4 by Silver Fox 17 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritInVanCA Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 Solutions are great but I think we should all be holding Hornby's feet to the fire on these things. I know the engineering has become more technical but I ran Hornby locomotives from the 50s, 60s and 70s right up to 1984 (sold everything and went to N) with no issues other than cleaning. This should not be a hobby that requires this skill level or extract financial commitment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukpetey Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 4 minutes ago, BritInVanCA said: Solutions are great but I think we should all be holding Hornby's feet to the fire on these things. I know the engineering has become more technical but I ran Hornby locomotives from the 50s, 60s and 70s right up to 1984 (sold everything and went to N) with no issues other than cleaning. This should not be a hobby that requires this skill level or extract financial commitment. Agreed. I’m happy to know that if/when the time comes, there are alternative and good quality replacement motors to be had, and I’m grateful to all involved in this. But yes, Hornby should really be dealing with this. We are early adopters and I don’t have the skill level to do what Matt has shown here. Nor should I have to. The models are expensive and I’m happy that they are, if they are of a quality that matches the price I’m prepared to pay. That quality needs to be inherent in every part of the model. Where it has been lacking, it should be rectified 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 (edited) The thing is, there probably are plenty of folk out there who've not had any problems yet with the original motor. Will they eventually experience a problem, and when? How long after purchase and warranty expires? Will Hornby come up with a better motor or a similar kit as a retrofit? This is a neat replacement kit option with arguably a smoother and more efficient motor. Very easy to install as long as you can solder the wires 🙂 It's the sort of kit I'm able to create myself as I have used the same type of double ended 1015 coreless motor and I have a 3D printer, but naturally the vast majority of folk won't have the same experience and equipment. Whether this motor will last a good lifetime is yet to be seen. There have been discussions on perceived short lifetimes of coreless motors factory fitted to locos just as we've seen with these seemingly cheap N20s Hornby has used. In my opinion coreless motor kits certainly have their place but in some ways they are a bit of a "fad" at the moment, in N gauge we're seeing people changing out perfectly good motors for these unservicable / disposable replacements. Of course there have always been firms offering better quality upgrades for those who wish to fit them, for example SB Modellbau create expensive kits with Faulhaber motors and flywheels. Edited September 4 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skelton Junction Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 That’s all very well for the oily rod pushers and chuffers amongst us but what we want is the class 50 drive shaft tutorial 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 @Skelton Junction, give me chance! That will be coming 👍 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 The key with a fairly simple motor swap that even if a modeller can’t do the soldering, the chances are pretty high (certain) you can find someone locally who can do that bit for you. I agree that Hornby or any manufacturer has a duty to get to grips with the issue but as Nick @ntpntpntp says to clock the hours until an OE motor fails could take a couple of years. Hornby do have an excellent reputation for customer service and often sort things out of warranty or for negligible cost. To me swapping a flawed component for new flawed component isn’t really a fix. The big drawback with coreless motors seems to always come to the issue of heat under load. Other coreless motors in the testing process failed, they just got too hot, the resin the holds the ‘basket’ of windings together collapses and dead motor. They were all smaller and/or less expense ones. I pretty sure if this one was going to give out it would have done by now but I’ll keep running it and update as the hours increase. Many in the industry (electronics) expect a premium coreless motor to be perfect for 1000 hours. Fingers crossed! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted September 4 Share Posted September 4 1 hour ago, Rallymatt said: The big drawback with coreless motors seems to always come to the issue of heat under load. Thankfully even 10 coaches is not really a load due to their free running so hopefully the heat issue might not materialise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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