First TT120 layout

[Paul-355679]

Feedback welcome on my 7’9 x 3’9 layout 

NB some points missing to goods yard and proposed engine shed

I have approx 12’ for incline - will tender locos go up it?

What to do about electrifying return loop?

[Fishmanoz]

FAQ 4 at the top of the DCC forum covers RLs (reversing loops) and is found here:

Put simply, you must included an isolated section longer than the longest train within the teardrop RL and control the polarity/phase within that section by powering it with an RLM (reverse loop module).

Edited September 12 by Fishmanoz

[GMD]

I think it also depends on whether you intend to run the layout in standard DC, DCC, or bluetooth HMDCC mode. 

As for the gradient - it entirely depends on how high you are going. For example - if you were 4' above the bottom rail - then your incline would be 2.78%, which is a bit of a struggle for the early steamers - the Duchess would perform much better. But at say 3", then it comes out at almost exactly 2% which is much more realistic. 

The layout looks great - but do keep a good margin between the outer rail and the edge of the board - Murphys law tells us that if it can derail at the worst spot - then it will! 

[Simon M]

Looking good - I have a similar dimension layout with incline joining upper loop to lower loop - I tried to work on the 2% rule but my advice would be try and see what works before fixing track down, steamers definitely more sensitive, especially on incline bends. Mine runs mainly straight nearly the entire length at the rear - yellow in the plan below 

[Chris98]

I have two reverse loops. Very easy to do with reverse modules. Never had any problem with either loop they are faultless.

[Mac202]

When I eventually get round to building my incline my plan is to raise one end of the baseboard until I have a 2% incline (measured by the app on my phone) and then test it with different locos and carriage loads.

We'll see if my theory is any good at a later date.

[Rallymatt]

If you are running a reverse loop as Fishy points out the entire section to contain a train should be isolated. If you are powering the track via a DCC (AC) supply you can use can use traditional Reverse Loop Module, RLM. If you wanted to double head or run a 125 with a decoder each end, most of them will have problems as they can’t respond to the current draw properly. Tam Valley Frog Juicer can. If you are using a DC track feed then the traditional RLM for DCC will not work, you can make one, there is a circuit diagram on the forum for one somewhere. Alternatively you can use a DPDT switch to feed the isolated section, it does mean stopping the train and power will be interrupted during manual polarity switching so if you are on HM DCC with DC, the decoder will need to re-establish BT connection. Not sure on timings but the new Hornby RLM is planned to be suitable for DCC and DC and should be engineeered to cope with multiple decoder current draw. 
2% incline on straight track is usually considered the limit, any curves do increase the drag so the incline usually needs to be reduced. You can probably find on Google the formula to calculate effective inclines with curves etc. There is another option, DCC Concepts sell a series of metal plates to install under the track and magnets to install on base of loco. (It’s an old idea Triang came out with in the 60’s when track had steel rails) The theory is it will increase the adhesion of the loco which some have had success with. If you are handy, you can make something the same very inexpensively. Something to consider is also the weight and drag in the rolling stock. Testing a few options is a good idea before committing to the final plan for the incline. 

[Skelton Junction]

Both Simon and Paul’s layouts are handsome plans. Looking forward to their progress. Also @Chris98, your layout development is always of interest and I peruse your dedicated thread with interest. 

[Craig-803583]

Looks great, some great advice as well.  A3s and A4s struggle with gradients and curves, especially with Pullmans but this issue has been fixed with the 50 and (I understand) the Duchess. I've seen a number of videos where modelers have used the powerbase system from dcc concepts to improve the grip of the locomotives going up a hill, so that may help as others have suggested.  

I'm thinking that I am just going to have an upper and a lower section with no link in between on mine as it's simpler.

Goods sheds (especially ones that are open at both ends) don't generally go on the end of a siding - the idea is that a train is pulled through and each wagon unloaded one after the other - the placement on the end would only allow the last wagon to be unloaded.  Having it beside the point would allow the the longest possible train to be unloaded.

If you are using the hornby bluetooth system then you may want to add some braking modules is well the module from tramfabriek works with the Hornby chips and allows trains to stop at stations and then optionally resume in a direction of your choosing. 

 

[dBerriff]

The Duchess has the power perhaps but the long wheelbase demands fairly gradual transitions into any change of gradient from what I have noticed running over temporary track. 

[Skelton Junction]

15 hours ago, Paul-355679 said:

Feedback welcome on my 7’9 x 3’9 layout 

NB some points missing to goods yard and proposed engine shed

I have approx 12’ for incline - will tender locos go up it?

What to do about electrifying return loop?

When on the inner loop in a clockwise direction there’s no exit without reversing?

Same scenario on the next loop too. 

Edited September 13 by Skelton Junction

[ukpetey]

20 hours ago, Craig-803583 said:

 

If you are using the hornby bluetooth system then you may want to add some braking modules is well the module from tramfabriek works with the Hornby chips and allows trains to stop at stations and then optionally resume in a direction of your choosing. 

 

I don’t want to take this thread off topic but is there any further info on these? 

[Chris98]

1 hour ago, ukpetey said:

I don’t want to take this thread off topic but is there any further info on these? 

Good question. I am interested in knowing more.

[Fishmanoz]

In the absence of Craig or another user coming back, I would start by looking up the ABC braking feature in the HM7000 manual, then check out the Train-O-Matic site for what part this product plays in it.  Then in addition to the manual there is comprehensive coverage in the HM | DCC forum if you search on ABC.

[Craig-803583]

4 hours ago, ukpetey said:

I don’t want to take this thread off topic but is there any further info on these? 

1. So to fit, gap 1 or both rails to create a braking zone, with the insulated joiners and connect the module to the line and the gapped rail with the 2 terminals.

The module sets the voltage to the gapped rail at a slightly lower level that can be detected by the chip in the loco.  - For arguments sake, let's say you choose to gap the left rail the full length of the the long platform in Paul's layout as below in blue.  A train could e.g. the A3 with pullman coaches could stop at the station, wait a while, then head off in the forward direction. 

If we add the green section, we can have the train (let's say it's a HST with 2 trailers) arrive at the high level and stop in the green siding/ high level station, wait a while and then head off in the reverse direction.  for a shuttle we would need the highlighted purple section so that it can find it's way to the blue section.  The train could then bounce between the 2 sections on it's own.

 

2. Configure the chip in the locomotive - CV 27 - Decoder Automatic Stopping Configuration, then CV 125 sets what to do on resume (this bit's from memory I'll come back if it's wrong e.g. nothing, continue or reverse) 

 

3 drive a configured train into the section

 

Jenny has put together a video on the feature with TXS which is worth a watch, she only has a reversing shuttle section in her layout if memory serves correctly but it should illustrate the point and she describes the concept well.

 

 

 

[ukpetey]

Thanks for the info and links. I had no idea that this was a thing, and I’m excited by the prospect. This will definitely feature in my impending layout and my awareness that it is a “thing” has come at just the right moment. I need to order isolating fishplates! 

[Paul-355679]

On 13/09/2024 at 08:27, Skelton Junction said:

When on the inner loop in a clockwise direction there’s no exit without reversing?

Same scenario on the next loop too. 

Thanks, I am putting another pair of points at the other end of through platform

[Paul-355679]

On 12/09/2024 at 17:43, GMD said:

I think it also depends on whether you intend to run the layout in standard DC, DCC, or bluetooth HMDCC mode. 

As for the gradient - it entirely depends on how high you are going. For example - if you were 4' above the bottom rail - then your incline would be 2.78%, which is a bit of a struggle for the early steamers - the Duchess would perform much better. But at say 3", then it comes out at almost exactly 2% which is much more realistic. 

The layout looks great - but do keep a good margin between the outer rail and the edge of the board - Murphys law tells us that if it can derail at the worst spot - then it will! 

Hi 

Thanks for the info I’m controlling with HM7000 Bluetooth. I’m waiting for Hornby’s RLM that (should) be compatible for the return loop isolation section - atm will just function as a siding

[Paul-355679]

1 minute ago, Paul-355679 said:

Hi 

Thanks for the info I’m controlling with HM7000 Bluetooth. I’m waiting for Hornby’s RLM that (should) be compatible for the return loop isolation section - atm will just function as a siding

The gradient will start at the far end of the through station - if not just after the points where the branch begins. I’m hoping for at least 3% possibly 2% but there are curves

[Paul-355679]

On 12/09/2024 at 17:28, Fishmanoz said:

FAQ 4 at the top of the DCC forum covers RLs (reversing loops) and is found here:

Put simply, you must included an isolated section longer than the longest train within the teardrop RL and control the polarity/phase within that section by powering it with an RLM (reverse loop module).

Hi

Thanks, I’m waiting for Hornby’s RLM & just use the return loop as a siding (not isolated yet) or joined to mainline

[Paul-355679]

On 12/09/2024 at 23:38, Craig-803583 said:

Looks great, some great advice as well.  A3s and A4s struggle with gradients and curves, especially with Pullmans but this issue has been fixed with the 50 and (I understand) the Duchess. I've seen a number of videos where modelers have used the powerbase system from dcc concepts to improve the grip of the locomotives going up a hill, so that may help as others have suggested.  

I'm thinking that I am just going to have an upper and a lower section with no link in between on mine as it's simpler.

Goods sheds (especially ones that are open at both ends) don't generally go on the end of a siding - the idea is that a train is pulled through and each wagon unloaded one after the other - the placement on the end would only allow the last wagon to be unloaded.  Having it beside the point would allow the the longest possible train to be unloaded.

If you are using the hornby bluetooth system then you may want to add some braking modules is well the module from tramfabriek works with the Hornby chips and allows trains to stop at stations and then optionally resume in a direction of your choosing. 

 

Thanks for your comments. The goods shed is just placed on the layout atm not in it’s final position.

[Rallymatt]

You can install a DPDT switch to the loop for a couple of £s to switch polarity of the loop manually. 

[Chris98]

I use 2 x NCE AR10 auto reverse modules (there are other makes) easy to install and run without any issue. 

[Fishmanoz]

If you look at the coverage in the HM | DCC forum I mentioned above (search on ABC), you’ll find RAF has a circuit there you can make yourself for a few pence.

[Paul-355679]

12 hours ago, Chris98 said:

I use 2 x NCE AR10 auto reverse modules (there are other makes) easy to install and run without any issue. 

Are these HM7000 Bluetooth control compatible?