E-Link with Power boosters

[Ollie0033]

I have read with interest some of the issues of E-Link and RM. I have another issue regarding boosters and E-link. I am told I should connect the boosters to the track using isolation track and have "districts". The boosters should not be connected to

 

the E-Link is the story from Hornby. I have two major questions

1. I have not yet invested in E-Link and I am trying to decide whether E-link or Elite is the best way forward; given some of the issues of Windows 8 I am hesitant to invest in E-link so has

 

anybody any issues with boosters and E-link using isolation?

2. With regard to isolation - if I have three sub-districts I have about 30 sets of different points connecting the different districts all interconnected with 6 loops/ovals. Does these mean that

 

every loop has to have a start isolation and an end isolation or can one sub-district just blend into another without isolating it? Otherwise I have no idea how to design the sub-districts without major re-design of my proposed layout - does anybody have experience

 

in this field?

[poliss]

I think 'repeaters' would have been a better name than boosters. I don't understand about not connecting them to the eLink in some way as the 'boosters' repeat the instructions from the controller.

There has to be an insulated gap between sections

 

to avoid voltage doubling as I understand it.

How many locomotives do you have? The eLink with the 4 amp power supply can run up to 10 locos at once without the need for boosters.

[Ollie0033]

poliss said:

I think 'repeaters' would have been a better name than boosters. I don't understand about not connecting them to the eLink in some way as the 'boosters' repeat the instructions from the controller.
There has to be an insulated

gap between sections to avoid voltage doubling as I understand it.
How many locomotives do you have? The eLink with the 4 amp power supply can run up to 10 locos at once without the need for boosters.

[Ollie0033]

Thanks Poliss,

I am referring to the Hornby booster hence the use of the term. I would be running some 10-12 locos at any one time but I think my problem is distance and not number of locos since there are 10 loops arranged across 230 sq. ft - so based

 

on all observations I have made I would need several "districts" to boost the power. Hornby told me not to link the boosters to the E-link but to run from isolation point to isolation point. Not having much experience on isolation - can locos successful bridge

 

isolation points without loss of power?

[RDS]

@Ollie0033

There is no reason why sub districts are required with DCC. The whole circuit is live all the time. The only thing you may need with a large layout are extra feeds to the track, via some sort of bus system but this is only to ensure that

 

the whole circuit gets the same voltage.

 

As for Elite or E-link, I would chose Elite every time. It is far more flexible and can operate on its own or through a PC in conjunction with RailMaster.

 

 

[Ollie0033]

Thanks RDS, Hornby informed me that with the length of track being proposed then boosters would be preferable even with DCC - thus splitting the layout into sections and each section having its own bus (so I believe!!!)

[beejack]

[sorry I don't agree. The whole point of power districts is to stop signal loss and ensure there is adequate power throughout the layout. Simply installing a bus system and a few extra track feeds will not stop this happening on a larger layout. To use

 

a booster you must have each power district isolated from the others. Take it from an expert - here is a quote from Brian Lambert:

Boosters provide additional track power for larger layouts or where there is a requirement to run a large number of locos

 

at once. They do not normally add to the consoles output current. So you don't add or replace the booster to the consoles PSU and increase its output current, as the console can't handle more current than its internal overload trip is set for (often between

 

2.5 and 5.0amps).

Trying to increase the consoles output current to say 8 or more amps could lead to serious damage or melting of some components!

A Power Booster is normally fed via its own dedicated power supply (PSU) from the mains power and has

 

a linking data cable between it and the main console. The track the boosters output feeds into must be electrically totally separate from that which the console feeds. So insulated rail joiners are used wherever the two rail sections abut each other.

 

This then makes separate 'power districts'. The main console still sends power to its section of track and data signals to the booster are sent via the data connection cable and the booster then sends power and digital commands to its section of track and

 

operates locos and accessories in the same fashion as if it were just the console powering everything.

 

Each Booster has to feed a totally separate and isolated section of track from any other section.]RDS said:

 

@Ollie0033

There is no

 

reason why sub districts are required with DCC. The whole circuit is live all the time. The only thing you may need with a large layout are extra feeds to the track, via some sort of bus system but this is only to ensure that the whole circuit gets the same

 

voltage.

 

As for Elite or E-link, I would chose Elite every time. It is far more flexible and can operate on its own or through a PC in conjunction with RailMaster.

 

[/reply]

[beejack]

Just to be clear I was disagreeing with RDS!

[poliss]

You may need a booster if you have a large layout. Mark Gurries describes large layouts as being around the size of a 2 car garage. https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/wiring-planing/what-is-a-large-layout

He also has

 

lots of other technical information about DCC.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home

[RDS]

@beejack

OK, I stand corrected then.

Sorry Ollie!

 

I always wonder though about isolated track joiners. How do they work when part of the loco is on one district and the other part is on the next district, which would happen very frequently

 

with my Blue Box Classes 20, 37, 47. On these loco's and probably many more both the front and rear bogies contain pick-ups and would easily bridge (and therefore connect) the districts.

 

[Gregd99]

Ollie0033 said:

I would be running some 10-12 locos at any one time but I think my problem is distance and not number of locos since there are 10 loops arranged across 230 sq. ft

Ollie,
When you say 10-12 locos at any one time

do you mean actually in motion or parked on the layout somewhere? Parked locos draw only a little power whereas moving locos might draw 200-400ish mA in normal operation.

Are you planning computer control or manual control. Have you thought about how

best to have 10-12 throttles available for loco control?

Interested to understand your ideas.

[Fishmanoz]

Ollie, from everyone's input here, you should now have a good understanding of power boosters. Everyone has been pretty right in what they've said, and they have each added a little to the story along the way. Let me just summarise:

 

Only one DCC

 

controller can be connected to any layout or section of a layout. In this context a booster is a controller because it feeds control signals to the track and hence locos and accessories running on the track.

 

Therefore, to use a booster, you must divide

 

your layout into 2 or more fully isolated power districts. You run your controller in one and one booster in each of the others.

 

You have only one master controller which is used to control everything no matter which district. This might be an Elite,

 

with or without RM, or RM/eLink (I can see no reason why eLink cannot run a booster, but stand to be corrected). An output from the controller is connected to the input of the booster, which then "repeats" the controller commands into its power district. Hence

 

poliss suggesting to us it might be better thought of as a repeater.

 

You might go to https://www.hornby.com/downloads/digital-instruction-manuals/ and download the booster manual to see how it does this, including that there are alternative ways of

 

making the connection.

 

The size of a layout is not a factor here for all practical purposes, unless maybe your layout is football field size. Given you use a DCC bus with adequate wire gauge, the bus will transmit your DCC signal without signal degradation

 

or reduction in voltage to all parts of your layout. The significant thing is the total of locos and accessories that you are running and whether they collectively exceed the current available from a 4 amp supply to controller or booster. You cannot increase

 

the rating of the supply to allow more current to the track via your controller or booster as they are not designed to cope with more current. If you attempt to do this, they will convert from standard running mode to smoke release mode, which is a very temporary

 

and expensive mode.

 

One advantage of separate districts not mentioned here relates to short circuits on the track. If your layout is a single district, a short will take out the entire layout. But a short in a district only takes out the district.

 

And only until you rectify the fault and reset.

 

Concerning a loco bridging between districts as it crosses, or an entire train for that matter if there is electrical power to carriages as in lit Pullmans, I believe the Hornby booster can handle this

 

by temporarily switching off when it detects power from the adjacent district. But don't quote me on this one. There is no suggestion anywhere that you need an isolated track section longer then your train in order to avoid this situation, as is needed when

 

you have a reversing loop run by a reversing loop module. And I also believe the Hornby booster has switching capabilities such that it is also a reversing loop module. Even though what I have said here might seem to be contradictory.

 

Have I missed

 

anything?

[Fishmanoz]

Just on the difference between RDS and beejack, boosters are not to stop signal loss but to provide more power to run more things at the same time. This is exactly what beejack's quote from Brian Lambert. As I also said, signal loss is not an issue in

 

practice with a properly designed bus system.

[Fishmanoz]

Add says after Brian Lambert.

[Ollie0033]

Thanks RDS and Beejack - I think I also stated earlier - what are the major problems in bridging the gap? Just to confirm the proposed layout is the size of a 2 car garage - hence why I thought I needed to boost the supply but I am really concerned about

 

locos passing over the isolation point - if I have a small shunter then would this just stop or is this a bad example? Do all locos manage to move between the districts without problems?

[Ollie0033]

Gregd99 said:

Ollie0033 said:

I would be running some 10-12 locos at any one time but I think my problem is distance and not number of locos since there are 10 loops arranged across 230 sq. ft
Ollie,
When you say 10-12 locos

at any one time do you mean actually in motion or parked on the layout somewhere? Parked locos draw only a little power whereas moving locos might draw 200-400ish mA in normal operation.

Are you planning computer control or manual control. Have you

thought about how best to have 10-12 throttles available for loco control?

Interested to understand your ideas.

[Ollie0033]

Greggd99,

I was planning on automating everything!! This means computer controlled with all points managed electronically. The number of locos present on the system at any one time would be 30, but only 10-12 MAXIMUM moving at any one time. I had planned

 

to use RM linked to the Elite or the E-Link which is part of my dilemma

[Ollie0033]

Fishmanoz said:

Ollie, from everyone's input here, you should now have a good understanding of power boosters. Everyone has been pretty right in what they've said, and they have each added a little to the story along the way. Let me just

summarise:

Only one DCC controller can be connected to any layout or section of a layout. In this context a booster is a controller because it feeds control signals to the track and hence locos and accessories running on the track.

Therefore,

to use a booster, you must divide your layout into 2 or more fully isolated power districts. You run your controller in one and one booster in each of the others.

You have only one master controller which is used to control everything no matter which

district. This might be an Elite, with or without RM, or RM/eLink (I can see no reason why eLink cannot run a booster, but stand to be corrected). An output from the controller is connected to the input of the booster, which then "repeats" the controller commands

into its power district. Hence poliss suggesting to us it might be better thought of as a repeater.

You might go to https://www.hornby.com/downloads/digital-instruction-manuals/ and download the booster manual to see how it does this, including that

there are alternative ways of making the connection.

The size of a layout is not a factor here for all practical purposes, unless maybe your layout is football field size. Given you use a DCC bus with adequate wire gauge, the bus will transmit your

DCC signal without signal degradation or reduction in voltage to all parts of your layout. The significant thing is the total of locos and accessories that you are running and whether they collectively exceed the current available from a 4 amp supply to controller

or booster. You cannot increase the rating of the supply to allow more current to the track via your controller or booster as they are not designed to cope with more current. If you attempt to do this, they will convert from standard running mode to smoke

release mode, which is a very temporary and expensive mode.

One advantage of separate districts not mentioned here relates to short circuits on the track. If your layout is a single district, a short will take out the entire layout. But a short in

a district only takes out the district. And only until you rectify the fault and reset.

Concerning a loco bridging between districts as it crosses, or an entire train for that matter if there is electrical power to carriages as in lit Pullmans, I believe

the Hornby booster can handle this by temporarily switching off when it detects power from the adjacent district. But don't quote me on this one. There is no suggestion anywhere that you need an isolated track section longer then your train in order to avoid

this situation, as is needed when you have a reversing loop run by a reversing loop module. And I also believe the Hornby booster has switching capabilities such that it is also a reversing loop module. Even though what I have said here might seem to be contradictory.



Have I missed anything?

[Ollie0033]

Ollie0033 said:

Fishmanoz said:

Ollie, from everyone's input here, you should now have a good understanding of power boosters. Everyone has been pretty right in what they've said, and they have each added a little to the story along

the way. Let me just summarise:

Only one DCC controller can be connected to any layout or section of a layout. In this context a booster is a controller because it feeds control signals to the track and hence locos and accessories running on the track.



Therefore, to use a booster, you must divide your layout into 2 or more fully isolated power districts. You run your controller in one and one booster in each of the others.

You have only one master controller which is used to control everything

no matter which district. This might be an Elite, with or without RM, or RM/eLink (I can see no reason why eLink cannot run a booster, but stand to be corrected). An output from the controller is connected to the input of the booster, which then "repeats"

the controller commands into its power district. Hence poliss suggesting to us it might be better thought of as a repeater.

You might go to https://www.hornby.com/downloads/digital-instruction-manuals/ and download the booster manual to see how it

does this, including that there are alternative ways of making the connection.

The size of a layout is not a factor here for all practical purposes, unless maybe your layout is football field size. Given you use a DCC bus with adequate wire gauge,

the bus will transmit your DCC signal without signal degradation or reduction in voltage to all parts of your layout. The significant thing is the total of locos and accessories that you are running and whether they collectively exceed the current available

from a 4 amp supply to controller or booster. You cannot increase the rating of the supply to allow more current to the track via your controller or booster as they are not designed to cope with more current. If you attempt to do this, they will convert from

standard running mode to smoke release mode, which is a very temporary and expensive mode.

One advantage of separate districts not mentioned here relates to short circuits on the track. If your layout is a single district, a short will take out the

entire layout. But a short in a district only takes out the district. And only until you rectify the fault and reset.

Concerning a loco bridging between districts as it crosses, or an entire train for that matter if there is electrical power to carriages

as in lit Pullmans, I believe the Hornby booster can handle this by temporarily switching off when it detects power from the adjacent district. But don't quote me on this one. There is no suggestion anywhere that you need an isolated track section longer then

your train in order to avoid this situation, as is needed when you have a reversing loop run by a reversing loop module. And I also believe the Hornby booster has switching capabilities such that it is also a reversing loop module. Even though what I have

said here might seem to be contradictory.

Have I missed anything?

[Rog RJ]

Boosters are designed to allow locos to move between power districts so you should have no problems when passing over insulated rail joiners.

[Ollie0033]

Super response - you have even answered the issues of bridging the gap - or tried to - based on all responses I plan to construct a small layout with a booster added just to ensure I get the wiring correct and the isolation done and ensure there are no

 

major issues before I lay down the final solution

Still concerned about the E-Link versus Elite!!

I have a PC with Windows 7 (HP) and linked to that a HP Officejet Pro 8600 - when scanning it constantly looses the driver - sometimes it is just a re-find

 

of the drivers but other times it is a complete loss which means re-installation - this sounds like under certain configurations the E-link is simpler. I was planning to use a laptop with Windows 8 (already bought) for the control of the system but I am sceptical

 

as to how advanced e-Link really is??!!

[Fishmanoz]

I think if I were you, I would set up my layout as a single district but have isolated rail joiners in it so it can be divided into 2 districts, then run my bus such that it would be easy to divide it into 2 separate buses for the 2 separate districts.

 

Then if you find that you overload the system by running everything you want to run and causing it to cut out, you could then separate the buses and instal a booster in the separate district.

 

If you are intending to run everything automatically via

 

RM, it doesn't really make any difference whether you use Elite or eLink as all they are is an interface between RM on your laptop and the track. Elite of course has the advantage that you can run things separately from it without RM, unlike eLink.

 

Don't

 

worry about what operating system you are using, RM works equally well whatever Windows version you have, despite what some people say on here.

[Gregd99]

Ollie0033 said:

Greggd99,
I was planning on automating everything!! This means computer controlled with all points managed electronically. The number of locos present on the system at any one time would be 30, but only 10-12 MAXIMUM moving

at any one time. I had planned to use RM linked to the Elite or the E-Link which is part of my dilemma

Ollie,
It sounds like an interesting project. When you start to operate a few locos on a layout or need some precision in their location then

location detection starts to get pretty important.

if you have not already had a look you might like to read https://www.hornby.com/forums/hornby-forums/hornby-railmaster/5519/

[Ollie0033]

Thanks to everybody for the precise and clear replies

[RDS]

@Ollie0033

I notice a few posts back that you are still undecided between Elite & E-link.

E-link is a much cheaper option because it includes RailMaster at not much more than the cost of RailMaster alone.

However, Elite will give you more flexibility

 

and allow you to take over any part of your system manually if you so desire.

With E-link you have no choice but to use the computer to control your system.

As with most things - you get what you pay for.